Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop

min0 lee · 06-10-2009, 05:13 PM

Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop - Yahoo! News
By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Writer

AUSTIN, Texas – Cursing and belligerent, the great-grandmother refused to sign her speeding ticket, got out of her truck and dared a deputy to shock her with a Taser.

So he did.

Video released by a Travis County Constable's Office shows 72-year-old Kathryn Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning while the shocks jolted through her body after the May 11 confrontation with Travis County Sheriff's Deputy Chris Bieze.

Winkfein was stopped for driving 60 mph in a 45-mph zone just west of Austin. A dashboard camera in the deputy's car shows the 4-foot-11 Winkfein refusing to sign her speeding ticket, getting out of her white pickup truck and cursing at the deputy constable.

Bieze then pushes her to get her away from traffic.
"You're gonna shove a 72-year-old woman," Winkfein says angrily, standing inches from the deputy.

"If you don't step back, you're going to get Tased," Bieze says.
"Go ahead, Tase me," Winkfein says. "I dare you."

The video shows Bieze using the Taser and Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning in pain.
"Put your hands behind your back or you're going to be Tased again," Bieze yells, and then hits her with another jolt.

Winkfein was eventually charged with resisting arrest, a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and fines up to $4,000.
A telephone message left with Constable Sgt. Maj. Gary Griffin of the constable's office was not immediately returned Wednesday. Telephone calls to a number listed for Kathryn Winkfein in Marble Falls, about 50 miles west of Austin, went unanswered.

Griffin has defended Bieze's actions and that Winkfein was belligerent and difficult to handle.

But Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, whose office does not oversee the constables, issued a statement Wednesday saying:
"I do not personally agree with the actions of the deputy constable as they are shown in the video. When I look at the video I am in awe of what happened."

Yahoo! <----With shocking video

sshamm_bone_1 · 06-10-2009, 05:22 PM

I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.

min0 lee · 06-10-2009, 05:27 PM

I wonder what affect a taser would have on a person who uses a pace maker.

**Prince** · 06-10-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sshamm_bone_1

I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.

Its pretty funny stuff?

No its not funny at all, what if that was your mother or grandmother? That cop should be fired, period.

min0 lee · 06-10-2009, 06:37 PM

The cop handled this wrong, instead of shoving her he could have just tried leading her to safety....and tasing a lady that age...wrong.

But this would have never happened if she complied with the officer.

sshamm_bone_1 · 06-10-2009, 06:44 PM

I guess I should clarify what I ment....the lady acting all crazy was funny (even though she had NO right to act that way). But I was very shocked at the slight over use of force. I would not agree with the cop getting fired however. You never know what kind of past situation the officer may have been in and the consequences for not using force. Plus she did ask for it.

maniclion · 06-10-2009, 07:38 PM

Slight over use of force are you nuts? He yells at her like she's a violent felon and then manhandles her and then tases a feeble hearted old woman......absolutely inhuman and if you say you think it was ok you are just as evil........honestly think about it she is tiny as fuck, her muscles have deteriorated from age, her bones are fragile, her skin is paper thin, and her heart is lucky it took a zap from the taser. She might have an attitude but thats it....she poses no threat to the officer....fucking despicable

Hoglander · 06-10-2009, 08:33 PM

"...her bones are fragile...."

The results of subduing her are temporary in this case.

**Prince** · 06-10-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniclion

Slight over use of force are you nuts? He yells at her like she's a violent felon and then manhandles her and then tases a feeble hearted old woman......absolutely inhuman and if you say you think it was ok you are just as evil........honestly think about it she is tiny as fuck, her muscles have deteriorated from age, her bones are fragile, her skin is paper thin, and her heart is lucky it took a zap from the taser. She might have an attitude but thats it....she poses no threat to the officer....fucking despicable

exactly, which is why I say he should be fired, he has no business being a cop.

maniclion · 06-10-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

"...her bones are fragile...."

The results of subduing her are temporary in this case.

If you are claiming he could have broken her wrist or arm by trying to hold her you are looking past the risks of stopping her heart or her breaking her hip or hitting her head when he tased her.....

Hoglander · 06-10-2009, 09:37 PM

I didn't start the the "what if."

It worked out.

I guess I'm wondering if you are O.K.

sshamm_bone_1 · 06-10-2009, 09:38 PM

Either way the grandma was really wrong in all of this and is the one who is getting charged for resisting arrest. Lets face it....after trying to push a cop into traffic shes lucky she wasn't dropped on the ground face first.

maxpro2 · 06-10-2009, 10:26 PM

This should constitute excessive force. Police should not be allowed to use tasers for mere compliance devices when no one's safety is being threatened. Tasers were invented as an alternative to lethal force in situations where lethal force would otherwise be necessary... to use them on a non-compliant but also non-threatening arrestee is absurd.

Surprisingly, however, in Buckley v. Haddock the use of tasers was permitted in a similar situation where the arrestee was even less threatening than this 72 year old lady. Check out YouTube - Buckley v. Rackard (TASER video). I don't know how Texas comes out or will come out on the issue, however.

Cop's these days have got to be absolutely retarded to pull this stuff knowing everything they do is recorded. I am not anti-cop at all, but I just hate hearing about such STUPID abuses of power that end up costing taxpayers money due to resulting lawsuits.

Little Wing · 06-10-2009, 10:29 PM

her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.

maxpro2 · 06-10-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Wing

her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.

She was no saint, but that level of serious force should not have been used.

Did she commit a violent crime? Did the officer fear for his life? Was she threatening the safety of others? Was she trying to escape?

No on all counts. Tasing someone and subjecting them to some of the most extreme pain imaginable because they were a little rowdy when they refused to sign a parking ticket is outrageous.

If anyone dismisses this violation as "oh she asked for it" or "oh she was no saint either" then they have missed the bigger picture and have basically consented to painful corporal punishment whenever they do something that a cop does not like.

Little Wing · 06-10-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxpro2

She was no saint, but that level of serious force should not have been used.

Did she commit a violent crime? Did the officer fear for his life? Was she threatening the safety of others? Was she trying to escape?

No on all counts. Tasing someone and subjecting them to some of the most extreme pain imaginable because they were a little rowdy when they refused to sign a parking ticket is outrageous.

If anyone dismisses this violation as "oh she asked for it" or "oh she was no saint either" then they have missed the bigger picture and have basically consented to painful corporal punishment whenever they do something that a cop does not like.

did i imply anywhere at all he did the right thing. uh nooooooooo. jeeze.

maxpro2 · 06-10-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Wing

did i imply anywhere at all he did the right thing. uh nooooooooo. jeeze.

You should be ashamed of yourself. This poor lady has suffered enough.

jk

Little Wing · 06-11-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxpro2

You should be ashamed of yourself. This poor lady has suffered enough.

jk

i'm glad i'm not related to either of them.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

The cop handled this wrong, instead of shoving her he could have just tried leading her to safety....and tasing a lady that age...wrong.

But this would have never happened if she complied with the officer.

I'm with you, at face value I think if he would have strongarmed cuffs on her he might have broken her wrist or arm. Then again, hitting pavement in a taze probably was dangerous too for someone her age. She shouldn't have been so bitchy (part of being old for some people), but he wasn't really spicing up the mood in a good way either.

Cops are supposed to be a couple notches above and know how to keep their cool, and they often keep getting bad press left and right from these incidents.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Wing

her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either.

Exactly, neither of them was helping the other out...

maniclion · 06-11-2009, 03:41 AM

She may have broken a law but he broke the laws of human decency, you don't treat the elderly this way. You think in a nursing home if a patient gets rowdy it would be ok for a nurse to grab the paddles of the defibrillator and zap him/her into compliance?

I know there was a time when almost everybody would have agreed that the cop could have been more tactful in his approach, but these day's it seems people are more easy to give in to authority so what can I say.....

**I Are Baboon** · 06-11-2009, 06:23 AM

pwn3d.

AKIRA · 06-11-2009, 06:32 AM

I kind of...expected worse.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniclion

but these day's it seems people are more easy to give in to authority so what can I say.....

I disagree completely, in the old days nobody would mouth off to a cop. Now every person young and old mouths off (and more) to authority.

chobby192 · 06-11-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Winkfein was stopped for driving 60 mph in a 45-mph zone just west of Austin. A dashboard camera in the deputy's car shows the 4-foot-11 Winkfein refusing to sign her speeding ticket, getting out of her white pickup truck and cursing at the deputy constable.

Sorry, grandma, but you broke the law. Now you take responsibility for your action and set example for younger generation.

QuestionGuy · 06-11-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I wonder what affect a taser would have on a person who uses a pace maker.

its been prooven that it does not have any affect, the electricity does not affect your heart at all.

QuestionGuy · 06-11-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sshamm_bone_1

I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.

DUDE, I’m at a loss for words when it comes to your comment, and please don’t take this as an angry statement, I would like to educate you and open your eyes because I was a sheep just like you...............If this was me (and I was in some shity situations) I would at least try to use some verbal skills (that I have gathered in the many times I spent in internal affairs for rudeness complaints) to make the situation better, I would have swallowed my pride and let the lady go without a ticket and have wished her a "better day", thus avoiding the whole conflict but at the same time not really doing my job, see??...................So here is the FACT, the taser avoided the granny from getting twisted into a pretzel possibly slammed on the ground and maybe even punched because she would have resisted the officer when he HAD TO TAKE CONTROL BECAUE ITS HIS JOB...SO the taser caused her a little pain for 5 seconds and she complied right after, but if the cop did not have a taser he would had had to use a lot more physical actions thus probably breaking the granny’s hip in the process and hurting her more...........................

Ill give you an example of many that I have............. 1:30AM in the middle of a infamous park in the city, in the pitch dark. A guy who has a 2nd degree felony warrant for a robbery has just been seen entering the park 5 minutes ago. I find a man matching his description walking towards me. I try to stop and talk to him because i have MORE than enough "reasonable suspicion". He starts walking away and denies talking to me, I tell him three times to stop and tlak to me but he does not and starts explaining why I don’t have the right to do this to him. (keep in mind he is a possible wanted felon and he is trespassing in the park at night). He refuses to comply and I have to do something since I am the cop and I have to be in charge. So it has come to this, I have to be physical, I grab his arm, and he pulls away, so I grab his neck and throw him on the ground. Now there is 250 pounds of muscle and equipment on top of this guy but he does a pushup like a fucking rabbit and throws me off him. 3 whole minutes pass by with me screaming "stop resisting" and him screaming "Police brutality help help", my co workers can't find me because its a huge park and punches, kicks are being exchanged.....The guy is high on meth and he can’t feel that his nose is broken and its bleeding out everywhere....I was clearly beating his ass but I was getting tired as hell...SO, I pull my taser and tase him THREE freaking times before he decides to stop trying to take the wires out of his body and give up. Now i know grandma was not a big fighter but the cop avoided more injury to her by tasing her than having to go physical in which case INGORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU would still be "AT A LOSS FOR WORDS".

AGAIN, im sure you are a good "sheep" who means no harm and just tries to survive in this world, but please do tell what you would have done....and keep in mind you have a comfortable chair and plenty of time to come up wiht a response, this cop didn't.

Triple Threat · 06-11-2009, 11:37 AM

I wonder if that lady was soxmuscle's grandmother?

**IainDaniel** · 06-11-2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

DUDE, I’m at a loss for words when it comes to your comment, and please don’t take this as an angry statement, I would like to educate you and open your eyes because I was a sheep just like you...............If this was me (and I was in some shity situations) I would at least try to use some verbal skills (that I have gathered in the many times I spent in internal affairs for rudeness complaints) to make the situation better, I would have swallowed my pride and let the lady go without a ticket and have wished her a "better day", thus avoiding the whole conflict but at the same time not really doing my job, see??...................So here is the FACT, the taser avoided the granny from getting twisted into a pretzel possibly slammed on the ground and maybe even punched because she would have resisted the officer when he HAD TO TAKE CONTROL BECAUE ITS HIS JOB...SO the taser caused her a little pain for 5 seconds and she complied right after, but if the cop did not have a taser he would had had to use a lot more physical actions thus probably breaking the granny’s hip in the process and hurting her more...........................

Ill give you an example of many that I have............. 1:30AM in the middle of a infamous park in the city, in the pitch dark. A guy who has a 2nd degree felony warrant for a robbery has just been seen entering the park 5 minutes ago. I find a man matching his description walking towards me. I try to stop and talk to him because i have MORE than enough "reasonable suspicion". He starts walking away and denies talking to me, I tell him three times to stop and tlak to me but he does not and starts explaining why I don’t have the right to do this to him. (keep in mind he is a possible wanted felon and he is trespassing in the park at night). He refuses to comply and I have to do something since I am the cop and I have to be in charge. So it has come to this, I have to be physical, I grab his arm, and he pulls away, so I grab his neck and throw him on the ground. Now there is 250 pounds of muscle and equipment on top of this guy but he does a pushup like a fucking rabbit and throws me off him. 3 whole minutes pass by with me screaming "stop resisting" and him screaming "Police brutality help help", my co workers can't find me because its a huge park and punches, kicks are being exchanged.....The guy is high on meth and he can’t feel that his nose is broken and its bleeding out everywhere....I was clearly beating his ass but I was getting tired as hell...SO, I pull my taser and tase him THREE freaking times before he decides to stop trying to take the wires out of his body and give up. Now i know grandma was not a big fighter but the cop avoided more injury to her by tasing her than having to go physical in which case INGORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU would still be "AT A LOSS FOR WORDS".

AGAIN, im sure you are a good "sheep" who means no harm and just tries to survive in this world, but please do tell what you would have done....and keep in mind you have a comfortable chair and plenty of time to come up wiht a response, this cop didn't.

You are kidding me right? Trying to make a comparison between these two stories?

QuestionGuy · 06-11-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IainDaniel

You are kidding me right? Trying to make a comparison between these two stories?

no im not kidding you, im giving you an example of how tasers prevent more injurie to a person instead of having to go physcial, and If you read who whole post right, you can figure out that this whole thing could have been avoided by just leting the pissy bitch go on her way.....SWALLOW YOUR PRIDE is my policy, that is why you see all those cops at 7-11, because doing your job is gona get you in trouble

BTW, I tased a 61 year old vietnam vet once because he really wanted to fight and he would have backed down so yes, taser prvent more injurie to a person becasue you dont have to exchange blows and risk injurie....WHO the hell wants to go to work and get in a fight anyway?? the last thing I want to do is tear my bicep when i started seeing some real progress in the gym??

06-10-2009, 05:13 PM	#1
min0 lee Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 38,792 Photos: 542	Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop - Yahoo! News By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Writer AUSTIN, Texas – Cursing and belligerent, the great-grandmother refused to sign her speeding ticket, got out of her truck and dared a deputy to shock her with a Taser. So he did. Video released by a Travis County Constable's Office shows 72-year-old Kathryn Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning while the shocks jolted through her body after the May 11 confrontation with Travis County Sheriff's Deputy Chris Bieze. Winkfein was stopped for driving 60 mph in a 45-mph zone just west of Austin. A dashboard camera in the deputy's car shows the 4-foot-11 Winkfein refusing to sign her speeding ticket, getting out of her white pickup truck and cursing at the deputy constable. Bieze then pushes her to get her away from traffic. "You're gonna shove a 72-year-old woman," Winkfein says angrily, standing inches from the deputy. "If you don't step back, you're going to get Tased," Bieze says. "Go ahead, Tase me," Winkfein says. "I dare you." The video shows Bieze using the Taser and Winkfein hitting the ground and moaning in pain. "Put your hands behind your back or you're going to be Tased again," Bieze yells, and then hits her with another jolt. Winkfein was eventually charged with resisting arrest, a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and fines up to $4,000. A telephone message left with Constable Sgt. Maj. Gary Griffin of the constable's office was not immediately returned Wednesday. Telephone calls to a number listed for Kathryn Winkfein in Marble Falls, about 50 miles west of Austin, went unanswered. Griffin has defended Bieze's actions and that Winkfein was belligerent and difficult to handle. But Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, whose office does not oversee the constables, issued a statement Wednesday saying: "I do not personally agree with the actions of the deputy constable as they are shown in the video. When I look at the video I am in awe of what happened." Yahoo! <----With shocking video How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper

06-10-2009, 05:27 PM	#3
min0 lee Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 38,792 Photos: 542	I wonder what affect a taser would have on a person who uses a pace maker. How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper

06-10-2009, 06:37 PM	#5
min0 lee Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 38,792 Photos: 542	The cop handled this wrong, instead of shoving her he could have just tried leading her to safety....and tasing a lady that age...wrong. But this would have never happened if she complied with the officer. How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper

06-10-2009, 07:38 PM	#7
maniclion Cartographer of the Mind Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mens Incognita Posts: 20,437 Photos: 10	Slight over use of force are you nuts? He yells at her like she's a violent felon and then manhandles her and then tases a feeble hearted old woman......absolutely inhuman and if you say you think it was ok you are just as evil........honestly think about it she is tiny as fuck, her muscles have deteriorated from age, her bones are fragile, her skin is paper thin, and her heart is lucky it took a zap from the taser. She might have an attitude but thats it....she poses no threat to the officer....fucking despicable "We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Natures inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." Thomas Edison: In conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone

06-10-2009, 10:29 PM	#14
Little Wing Mommmmmm, turn it down!!! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: United States Posts: 23,758 Photos: 191	her behavior was atrocious but the cop could have tried a less confrontational approach. been polite to her, acted chivalrous in assisting here to step back where they would both be safe. his people skills are zero but she was no saint either. "MUSCLE IS TRULY GUARANTEED IF YOU WILL HONESTLY work out to BE YOUR VERY BEST - GO FOR IT!!! BECAUSE YOU CAN!!!!!! Take Care, John H."

06-10-2009, 05:22 PM	#2
sshamm_bone_1 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: wisconsin Posts: 25	I saw this on Attack of the Show today. Its pretty funny stuff, but for the un-nessary amount of force needed to control an old lady......i'm at a loss of words.

06-10-2009, 06:44 PM	#6
sshamm_bone_1 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: wisconsin Posts: 25	I guess I should clarify what I ment....the lady acting all crazy was funny (even though she had NO right to act that way). But I was very shocked at the slight over use of force. I would not agree with the cop getting fired however. You never know what kind of past situation the officer may have been in and the consequences for not using force. Plus she did ask for it.

06-10-2009, 08:33 PM	#8
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 1,501 Photos: 10	"...her bones are fragile...." The results of subduing her are temporary in this case.

06-10-2009, 09:37 PM	#11
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 1,501 Photos: 10	I didn't start the the "what if." It worked out. I guess I'm wondering if you are O.K.

06-10-2009, 09:38 PM	#12
sshamm_bone_1 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: wisconsin Posts: 25	Either way the grandma was really wrong in all of this and is the one who is getting charged for resisting arrest. Lets face it....after trying to push a cop into traffic shes lucky she wasn't dropped on the ground face first.

06-10-2009, 10:26 PM	#13
maxpro2 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,122	This should constitute excessive force. Police should not be allowed to use tasers for mere compliance devices when no one's safety is being threatened. Tasers were invented as an alternative to lethal force in situations where lethal force would otherwise be necessary... to use them on a non-compliant but also non-threatening arrestee is absurd. Surprisingly, however, in Buckley v. Haddock the use of tasers was permitted in a similar situation where the arrestee was even less threatening than this 72 year old lady. Check out YouTube - Buckley v. Rackard (TASER video). I don't know how Texas comes out or will come out on the issue, however. Cop's these days have got to be absolutely retarded to pull this stuff knowing everything they do is recorded. I am not anti-cop at all, but I just hate hearing about such STUPID abuses of power that end up costing taxpayers money due to resulting lawsuits.

06-11-2009, 03:41 AM	#21
maniclion Cartographer of the Mind Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mens Incognita Posts: 20,437 Photos: 10	She may have broken a law but he broke the laws of human decency, you don't treat the elderly this way. You think in a nursing home if a patient gets rowdy it would be ok for a nurse to grab the paddles of the defibrillator and zap him/her into compliance? I know there was a time when almost everybody would have agreed that the cop could have been more tactful in his approach, but these day's it seems people are more easy to give in to authority so what can I say..... "We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Natures inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." Thomas Edison: In conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone

06-11-2009, 06:23 AM	#22
I Are Baboon pedal pedal pedal Moderator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Beerville Posts: 11,942 Photos: 4	pwn3d.

06-11-2009, 06:32 AM	#23
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 8,787 Photos: 3	I kind of...expected worse. 6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 365 (12/3) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

06-11-2009, 11:37 AM	#28
Triple Threat End of the world Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lost Posts: 10,444 Photos: 6	I wonder if that lady was soxmuscle's grandmother?

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