Where Have All the Christians Gone?

bio-chem · 10-10-2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

Bend it and pervert it all you like. Jesus wouldn't torture a man to stop terrorism. Jesus would try to understand the man, and love him, and try to show him a way to find happiness without hurting others. Religious fanaticism on their side and ours is the cause of terrorism in the first place.

You are christian only on the values that you already agreed with, and to hell with the rest. You are a primary reason why people are turning their backs on the church. Ironically, you are the primary cause of the death of your own relegion. Give a few generations, and maybe it will be phased out completely.

while I agree that Jesus wouldn't torture a man and that torture isn't anywhere near the teachings of Christ, I tend to disagree with the thought that religious fanaticism on the part of Christians is the cause of terrorism. at least not in the sense that it had anything to do with 9/11 or the attacking of Christians throughout the world by Muslims.

When Christian fanaticism leads to terrorism it is usually on our own people. an example would be those who kill abortionist doctors, or burn black churches.

bio-chem · 10-10-2009, 05:30 PM

It kind of sucks that IM has been so dead lately. This is a topic that I would love to have a discussion about. there are about 5-6 of you guys whose thoughts I would really like to learn about on this subject. Kelju tops the list at the moment.

danzik17 · 10-10-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

while I agree that Jesus wouldn't torture a man and that torture isn't anywhere near the teachings of Christ, I tend to disagree with the thought that religious fanaticism on the part of Christians is the cause of terrorism. at least not in the sense that it had anything to do with 9/11 or the attacking of Christians throughout the world by Muslims.

When Christian fanaticism leads to terrorism it is usually on our own people. an example would be those who kill abortionist doctors, or burn black churches.

I kind of feel that you are assuming that the Christian fanatic is one who would attack (in this case) Muslims openly via something like suicide bombing.

To me, a fanatic could also mean certain people in this country who believe in their faith beyond reason which can cloud judgement and result in decisions that cause conflicts. Your example of abortionist killings and church burnings fits into that description, but so does the many wars fought because people couldn't accept that perhaps their religion didn't offer all of the answers.

Besides, the idea that we are attacked because we are free is quite frankly still absurd to me. I am on the side that it is due to interventionalist policies that caused these conflicts.

KelJu · 10-10-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

while I agree that Jesus wouldn't torture a man and that torture isn't anywhere near the teachings of Christ, I tend to disagree with the thought that religious fanaticism on the part of Christians is the cause of terrorism. at least not in the sense that it had anything to do with 9/11 or the attacking of Christians throughout the world by Muslims.

When Christian fanaticism leads to terrorism it is usually on our own people. an example would be those who kill abortionist doctors, or burn black churches.

I didn't say that christian fanaticism led to 9/11. I think our our constant meddling in the middle east led to it. I think funding factions in the middle east to do our dirty work led to it. I think that a military presence in various regions of the middle east led to it. Basically, politics led to it.

However, once the planes fell, most of the Americans Christians decided that that war with the middle east was right and just. God was on our side, and we fight for what is right. Bullshit! We fought because we were angry and afraid. It has nothing to do with God, Jesus, religion, justice, or freedom. They kicked us in the nuts, so we pulled out our gun and shot them in the head. We reciprocated the hatred and violence. I can't think of anything more unlike Jesus than that.

Jesus would not condone hate, much less war or torture. It is not complicated unless you make it. I sure as hell can;t imagine Jesus in a small room drowning suspected terrorist for information so that we can go kill them, too. The notion is laughable. But, humans have a weak psyche. Our delicate ego can't handle the fact that we know what we are doing is wrong, so we twist the facts to make it seem like we aren't wrong.

That in itself doesn't bother me. We are human and we all do it to one degree or another. What pisses me off to no end is when people try to tell me what to do based on their warped fucking perception of reality that makes no sense whatsoever.

Religion and especially faith can be a great tool to better yourself. Unfortunately, Christians have a real bad reputation for trying to use it to change the world around them instead of working to grow and improve their lives from the inside.

There are a lot of beautiful people in the world who used the teachings of Jesus to improve their life, and by doing so improved the lives of those around them. My mother and grand mother are two perfect examples. They are full of love and kindness and giving and hope. But, truth be told they probably would have been that way anyway, but their love came out with a christian flavor.

Turds like BusyLiven make the good Christians look bad. The church will fall, because of it.

bio-chem · 10-10-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

I kind of feel that you are assuming that the Christian fanatic is one who would attack (in this case) Muslims openly via something like suicide bombing.

To me, a fanatic could also mean certain people in this country who believe in their faith beyond reason which can cloud judgement and result in decisions that cause conflicts. Your example of abortionist killings and church burnings fits into that description, but so does the many wars fought because people couldn't accept that perhaps their religion didn't offer all of the answers.

Besides, the idea that we are attacked because we are free is quite frankly still absurd to me. I am on the side that it is due to interventionalist policies that caused these conflicts.

I've never read of a Christian fanatic attacking a muslim because of his faith. Thats not how Christians or Christian fanatics operate.1

I'm not looking to get into an discussion about the crusades. The United states wasn't even a thought at that time.

i agree that we were attacked because of our interventionalist policies. i don't think that those policies were Christian policies though. We have Christian leaders, or leaders who say that they are Christian, but that doesn't make their policies Christian ones. we still have a separation of church and state here. while in other parts of the world that is not the case.

bio-chem · 10-10-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

I didn't say that christian fanaticism led to 9/11. I think our our constant meddling in the middle east led to it. I think funding factions in the middle east to do our dirty work led to it. I think that a military presence in various regions of the middle east led to it. Basically, politics led to it.

However, once the planes fell, most of the Americans Christians decided that that war with the middle east was right and just. God was on our side, and we fight for what is right. Bullshit! We fought because we were angry and afraid. It has nothing to do with God, Jesus, religion, justice, or freedom. They kicked us in the nuts, so we pulled out our gun and shot them in the head. We reciprocated the hatred and violence. I can't think of anything more unlike Jesus than that.

Jesus would not condone hate, much less war or torture. It is not complicated unless you make it. I sure as hell can;t imagine Jesus in a small room drowning suspected terrorist for information so that we can go kill them, too. The notion is laughable. But, humans have a weak psyche. Our delicate ego can't handle the fact that we know what we are doing is wrong, so we twist the facts to make it seem like we aren't wrong.

That in itself doesn't bother me. We are human and we all do it to one degree or another. What pisses me off to no end is when people try to tell me what to do based on their warped fucking perception of reality that makes no sense whatsoever.

Religion and especially faith can be a great tool to better yourself. Unfortunately, Christians have a real bad reputation for trying to use it to change the world around them instead of working to grow and improve their lives from the inside.

There are a lot of beautiful people in the world who used the teachings of Jesus to improve their life, and by doing so improved the lives of those around them. My mother and grand mother are two perfect examples. They are full of love and kindness and giving and hope. But, truth be told they probably would have been that way anyway, but their love came out with a christian flavor.

Turds like BusyLiven make the good Christians look bad. The church will fall, because of it.

I don't think our wars in Afghanistan or iraq have anything to do with Christianity. they have to do with the fact that US citizens were attacked
on US soil and you don't get to do that. Brothers, Sisters, Mothers, Fathers were killed during everyday life here at home. These were not soldiers. Protecting your homeland is not against the teachings of Christ. I might add that since that time we have not been attacked on American soil again. That seems to be a pretty big thing in my mind.

As much as you don't like busy the truth is if you met him, or a guy just like him in the streets you would see a normal guy going about his business who genuinely cared about others well being and tried to help out when he is capable. much like yourself.

bio-chem · 10-10-2009, 06:51 PM

any chance we could get back on the original topic about the percentage of US citizens aligning themselves with a denomination? The original topic is a domestic one. What the heck does it have to do with Muslims?

busyLivin · 10-10-2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

Turds like BusyLiven make the good Christians look bad. The church will fall, because of it.

Your nerve never ceases to astound me.

You package me up anyway you want to, KelJu. I try to be a good person to people & my faith is the most important part of my life. You demean my adherence to my faith because of a post that you spent all of 2 seconds analyzing.

You act as if I'd enjoy torturing someone.... My allowance for torture isn't about my thirst for blood but a desire to save innocent people's lives. You may not agree with me, but you have to at least see my intentions are good.

I think it's pathetic for you & danzik to take things I've said & judge me as a Christian. I never claimed to be perfect at all. I have done a lot of things Jesus wouldn't approve of.. I certainly don't need you here to remind me of that.

Seriously, low blow.

Big Smoothy · 10-11-2009, 12:39 AM

As for Christianity, I have no problem.

But a group of Christians have been using the secular government and courts to enforce Christians beliefs onto Non-Christians.

This is called "Dominionist" theology.

Check out the book called "The Family," and read the article in
Harper's by the same author.

The family's inner core is composed of about 300 people, with 10,000+ associates.

Inner-core members include high ranking military officers, (A former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff), Senators, and Congressman.

The IS, a secret organization.

bio-chem · 10-11-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Smoothy

As for Christianity, I have no problem.

But a group of Christians have been using the secular government and courts to enforce Christians beliefs onto Non-Christians.

This is called "Dominionist" theology.

Check out the book called "The Family," and read the article in
Harper's by the same author.

The family's inner core is composed of about 300 people, with 10,000+ associates.

Inner-core members include high ranking military officers, (A former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff), Senators, and Congressman.

The IS, a secret organization.

your conspiracy theories never cease to amaze me. but i guess really discussing the topic at hand was asking too much

Big Smoothy · 10-12-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

your conspiracy theories never cease to amaze me. but i guess really discussing the topic at hand was asking too much

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

What conspiracy theories? Please name one.

This secret Christian group is now revealed to the public.

Remember the "C streeters?"

Governor Sanford? He was one of them.

There is a new book - that is selling quite well - called "The Family."

The members are noted publicly.

Nothing conspiratorial about it. They are basically a lobby group with a lot of power - and their goal is Dominionism. Using the secular courts and government.

Check it out.

I don't consider "the family" and "C street" to be a "conspiracy."

Nor do I believe in "conspiracies."

Waiting for your reply.

bio-chem · 10-12-2009, 09:19 AM

my reply? everything you just wrote smacks of conspiracy to me. I would love to see any regular member on this board come out in support of anything you just typed right there.

ALBOB · 10-12-2009, 09:44 AM

What I find so ironic is that the very people on here who rail against Christianity because they say it preaches hate, are filled with more hate than any Christian I've ever met. Actually, I don't know if it's ironic or just plain pathetic.

Oh well, I'm gonna live my life the way I see fit. As long as you don't try to force your views onto me then I won't try to force mine onto you.

**Dale Mabry** · 10-12-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Oh well, I'm gonna live my life the way I see fit. As long as you don't try to force your views onto me then I won't try to force mine onto you.

I wish more people held to this type of thing. In addition, I wish our foreign policy mirrored it as well.

**calalily1972** · 10-12-2009, 03:05 PM

I grew up Christian and I follow the basic beliefs. Be good to others. However, I consider myself Agnostic. I don't believe in the Christian stories in the Bible.

Many people in this generation feel the same way and I think a part of Christianity membership declining is the fact that now our kids don't go to Church. You do as your parents do.

maniclion · 10-12-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

my reply? everything you just wrote smacks of conspiracy to me. I would love to see any regular member on this board come out in support of anything you just typed right there.

I think the whole thing was tainted by the "secret organization" remark.....It's not very secretive if so much is known about them....

bio-chem · 10-12-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniclion

I think the whole thing was tainted by the "secret organization" remark.....It's not very secretive if so much is known about them....

perhaps, but it was his choice of words. not mine

Big Smoothy · 10-12-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

my reply? everything you just wrote smacks of conspiracy to me. I would love to see any regular member on this board come out in support of anything you just typed right there.

How is what I wrote about a conspiracy.

Do you claim "The Family" does not exist? They are in the mainstream media.

The Cedars mansion is in Northern Virgiania.

Member of this board support my comments on "The Family" and C street?

It's not about me, the topic is about this Dominionist Christian group.

Do some research on the topic.

10-11-2009, 12:39 AM	#39
Big Smoothy Windy City Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,267	As for Christianity, I have no problem. But a group of Christians have been using the secular government and courts to enforce Christians beliefs onto Non-Christians. This is called "Dominionist" theology. Check out the book called "The Family," and read the article in Harper's by the same author. The family's inner core is composed of about 300 people, with 10,000+ associates. Inner-core members include high ranking military officers, (A former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff), Senators, and Congressman. The IS, a secret organization. Military men are dumb, stupid animals, to be used as pawns for foreign policy – Henry Kissinger (January-February 2003 edition of Eagle Newsletter)

10-12-2009, 09:44 AM	#43
ALBOB IDIOT SAVANT Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: An alternate reality. Posts: 10,385	What I find so ironic is that the very people on here who rail against Christianity because they say it preaches hate, are filled with more hate than any Christian I've ever met. Actually, I don't know if it's ironic or just plain pathetic. Oh well, I'm gonna live my life the way I see fit. As long as you don't try to force your views onto me then I won't try to force mine onto you. Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

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10-12-2009, 03:05 PM	#45
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	I grew up Christian and I follow the basic beliefs. Be good to others. However, I consider myself Agnostic. I don't believe in the Christian stories in the Bible. Many people in this generation feel the same way and I think a part of Christianity membership declining is the fact that now our kids don't go to Church. You do as your parents do.