Local high schools want to have their graduation in a church - UPDATED 6/4 post 84

**MtnBikerChk** · 06-02-2010, 05:03 AM

Judge Won't Allow Enfield, Enrico Fermi High Schools To Hold Graduations At Church - Courant.com

A federal judge on Monday ruled that Enfield High School and Enrico Fermi High School will not be able to hold their graduations at First Cathedral, culminating a months-long debate over whether it is unconstitutional to host students' ceremonies at the mega-church.

The Enfield school system plans to appeal the judge's decision.

U.S. District Court Judge Janet Hall last week heard closing arguments in a legal challenge that five Enfield residents — two high school seniors and three parents — filed to block the town from renting the 3,000-seat Christian church in nearby Bloomfield. The graduations are scheduled for June 23 and 24.

In her ruling Monday, Hall wrote that the school system's decision to hold graduations at First Cathedral violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

"By choosing to hold graduations at First Cathedral, Enfield schools sends the message that it is closely linked with First Cathedral and its religious mission, that it favors the religious over the irreligious and that it prefers Christians over those that subscribe to other faiths, or no faith at all," Hall wrote. "In addition to the character of the forum, the history and context of the decision to hold the graduations at First Cathedral also support the conclusion that, in doing so, Enfield Public Schools has endorsed religion."

Vincent McCarthy, lead counsel for Enfield's public schools and senior Northeast counsel for the American Center for Law & Justice, said he will seek "an expedited appeal to the 2nd Circuit in New York."

"We will ask them to take a look at this decision and we will ask them to overturn it," he said Monday.

The Enfield Board of Education voted in April to rent First Cathedral for its graduation ceremonies. That vote prompted a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and a group called Americans United for Separation of Church and State, seeking a court injunction to bar the town from using the church. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of the two students and three parents, all requesting anonymity, who alleged that using the church was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by government. The plaintiffs wanted the graduations held in a nonreligious setting.

"We're thrilled, of course, with the ruling," said Alex Luchenitser, lead attorney for the plaintiffs and senior litigation counsel for Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "We're thrilled the students will not be coerced to go to church at the price of attending their own graduation."

"We thought we put out a strong case. We felt good about it coming out of the hearing," he continued.

Luchenitser said there are several other venues comparable to First Cathedral in price, distance from the high schools or seating capacity at which the graduations could be held. He offered as examples the MassMutual Center and Symphony Hall in Springfield, the Big E Coliseum in West Springfield and La Renaissance banquet hall in East Windsor.

"The most important thing is that this is a victory for the separation of church and state," Luchenitser said. "This is an event family members should be able to enjoy regardless of what their religion is."

Andrew Schneider, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Connecticut, said the decision sets a standard for other cases like it that might arise throughout the country.

"I think it definitely makes a clear statement to other public schools that might consider having a graduation in an overtly religious setting that this is not acceptable," Schneider said. "This has now been found to clearly violate the Constitution."

Andrew Silva, a senior at Enrico Fermi who is class valedictorian, was outside the high school with other students Monday to express disappointment at the judge's ruling.

"I planned at one point in my speech to congratulate everybody and say, 'The reason you're here today is because you stood up to the ACLU, who said we couldn't graduate here,' " he said. "Obviously, that's not an option right now."

McCarthy, the lead counsel for the Enfield school system, said he was dismayed by the judge's analysis of the case.

"We feel she misinterpreted the evidence. We disagree with her interpretation of the facts and the law," he said. "She seems to be very one-sided in her view of the case and not very fair."

McCarthy said that attorneys will look over the judge's full decision today and decide the specifics of how to proceed.

"We're seeking an appeal so Enfield can have its graduations at First Cathedral — the place that they chose," he said.

**Little Wing** · 06-02-2010, 09:54 AM

what a crock of bullshit. maybe it's just a nice building you tools. this was even better

Church Used in Porn Film May Need Reconsecration

The bishop of a diocese in the uplands of central Italy was last night mulling over whether to reconsecrate one of his churches following the discovery that it had been used to film a hardcore pornographic movie five years ago.

Il Confessionale

Described by one specialist website as "very hot Italian porno", the movie tells the story of a priest who "begins to give in to his sexual urges with young women who visit him for confession".

Couples from all over Italy are married in the picturesque church of San Vincenzo at Gioia Vecchio in the Abruzzo region, and questions have been raised about the validity of the hundreds of marriages celebrated since 1998, when the film was made.

i suppose the porn industry unfairly favors one religion over another?

religion has very little to do with simply renting a building.

btw it's a pretty good movie.

**NeilPearson** · 06-02-2010, 09:57 AM

Everyone knows the porn industry supports the Catholic church... and vice versa

**MtnBikerChk** · 06-02-2010, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Little Wing

religion has very little to do with simply renting a building.

I agree - and their argument is ridiculous saying the school would be endorsing the church etc etc.

My argument against it is just - I'm not Christian - I wouldn't want to graduate from high school under a crucifix!

**NeilPearson** · 06-02-2010, 02:54 PM

I would assume using the building would not be free.

I wouldn't want my graduation dollars ending up paying a church.

**maniclion** · 06-02-2010, 03:38 PM

I would have raised holy hell if my 99% church going classmates had wanted to hold our grad in Church...seriously everyone in my grad class went to church Weds and Sunday, in fact 2 of my classmates were preachers daughters...

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

I would assume using the building would not be free.

I wouldn't want my graduation dollars ending up paying a church.

You're making an assumption. Many churches lend out their churches for free for various events.

My turn for an assumption: the owners of the church gave out their property for free and were very happy, until some douche bag started crying "Oh no, it's a church!"

**maniclion** · 06-02-2010, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

You're making an assumption. Many churches lend out their churches for free for various events.

My turn for an assumption: the owners of the church gave out their property for free and were very happy, until some douche bag started crying "Oh no, it's a church!"

My turn for assumption, you didn't read that the school wanted to "rent" the church...

**MtnBikerChk** · 06-02-2010, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by maniclion

My turn for assumption, you didn't read that the school wanted to "rent" the church...

Yeah - the church isn't giving anything away for free......

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by MtnBikerChk

Yeah - the church isn't giving anything away for free......

I've seen plenty of churches that have.

**KelJu** · 06-02-2010, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

I've seen plenty of churches that have.

Sure, you have to if you want people to keep giving every Sunday. But every church in the world takes in more than it gives out. Otherwise it couldn't sustain itself.

**MDR** · 06-02-2010, 07:38 PM

Graduation in a church is not a good idea. I would think that people not involved in organized religion, or even opposed to religion in general might feel a bit alienated.

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

Sure, you have to if you want people to keep giving every Sunday. But every church in the world takes in more than it gives out. Otherwise it couldn't sustain itself.

Okay, yeah, whatever. No Christian ever does anything selflessly. Only non-religious people do.

Actually, that's a load of unbelievable bullshit. I've seen more religious people (not just Christians) do good things for others than I have non-religious people.

**KelJu** · 06-02-2010, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

Okay, yeah, whatever. No Christian ever does anything selflessly. Only non-religious people do.

Actually, that's a load of unbelievable bullshit. I've seen more religious people (not just Christians) do good things for others than I have non-religious people.

As usual, anything religious based that I say, you warp into something else so you can attack something that I never said.

I know the numbers and the facts. Conservative Christians give more to charity than anyone else in America. I can't remember the book, but the author was being interview at UC Berkly a while back.

However, I make the point again. All churches take in more than they give back. That is a basic law of economics. The church has bills to pay, utilities, paying the preacher or priest's expenses. Almost every chuck pays their preacher in the form of free houses and cars, or an outright salary.

So again, I don't know what you are talking about. I am just throwing out a basic fundamental truth. A church produces no goods or services and has many expenditures. Therefor, it must take in more than it gives out to keep the fucking lights on.

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

As usual, anything religious based that I say, you warp into something else so you can attack something that I never said.

I know the numbers and the facts. Conservative Christians give more to charity than anyone else in America. I can't remember the book, but the author was being interview at UC Berkly a while back.

However, I make the point again. All churches take in more than they give back. That is a basic law of economics. The church has bills to pay, utilities, paying the preacher or priest's expenses. Almost every chuck pays their preacher in the form of free houses and cars, or an outright salary.

So again, I don't know what you are talking about. I am just throwing out a basic fundamental truth. A church produces no goods or services and has many expenditures. Therefor, it must take in more than it gives out to keep the fucking lights on.

More bullshit.

MtnBikerChk: Yeah - the church isn't giving anything away for free......
Me: I've seen plenty of churches that have.
You: Sure, you have to if you want people to keep giving every Sunday.

You implied that churches do good so that people "keep giving every Sunday." Which is to say that if they're not going to get something for it, they're not going to do good for someone else.

Either you're lying or need to work on your writing skills.

**maniclion** · 06-02-2010, 08:21 PM

"Conservative Christians give more to charity than anyone else in America."

But who donates more of their time and soul, people like non-religious blood in a vial Angelina Jolie or little spiritual but not religious hippie liberals.....you can throw money at people all day, Jesus stopped and spent time with them....

**MDR** · 06-02-2010, 08:28 PM

Churches do some good work. They are also responsible for many of societies' problems. The are granted tax-exempt non-profit status by the federal government. Charging schools rent to use their facilities seems to me to fall under the category of services-for-hire. Take away the tax break, and we'll see how many churches make a go of it without federal assistance.

**KelJu** · 06-02-2010, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

More bullshit.

MtnBikerChk: Yeah - the church isn't giving anything away for free......
Me: I've seen plenty of churches that have.
You: Sure, you have to if you want people to keep giving every Sunday.

You implied that churches do good so that people "keep giving every Sunday." Which is to say that if they're not going to get something for it, they're not going to do good for someone else.

Either you're lying or need to work on your writing skills.

No, you replied with
"Only non-religious people do.

I've seen more religious people (not just Christians) do good things for others than I have non-religious people. "

None of which I would argue against in respect to public charity part. However churches are just a business. You want to see the worst of it, take a drive to southern Alabama. Take a drive around your average rural town and ask yourself why the highschool is caving in, or why some people still don't have running water and electricity, but the churches in town look like mega cathedrals. The southern baptist are fucking criminal cocksuckers. They would host a breakfast and serve the athletes meals on the mornings on the games, but they would get that money back 3 fold from the parents the following Sunday. One fucking chuck was bigger and cost 10 times more than a school that held over 500 kids.

Whoopty-fucking-doo, you saw a church lady doing something nice for those in need. That is the individual's credit which is what real spirituality is about anyway. It is a beautiful thing, and what what do everyone good. But, the church is an entity that needs feeding, otherwise it dies. So know damn well that someone has to manage the chuch just like a business in by bringing in new followers (AKA customers), and managing PR.

**jmorrison** · 06-02-2010, 09:08 PM

I actually like it when we disagree on something DOM's. We agree on so much other shit that it's fun to debate on others.

While I am a christian myself, I agree with the ruling. I recognize that many students and families are not Christian and would not be comfortable being forced to attend their graduation in a place that they may personally find offensive.

Now if the students wanted to rent the church for an after graduation party or service with their own money, I would support that completely as no child would be forced to attend simply to graduate.

While I would rather see everyone want to attend church, the Constitution is pretty clear on the subject, and as always, I defend the Constitution.

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by jmorrison

I actually like it when we disagree on something DOM's. We agree on so much other shit that it's fun to debate on others.

While I am a christian myself, I agree with the ruling. I recognize that many students and families are not Christian and would not be comfortable being forced to attend their graduation in a place that they may personally find offensive.

Now if the students wanted to rent the church for an after graduation party or service with their own money, I would support that completely as no child would be forced to attend simply to graduate.

While I would rather see everyone want to attend church, the Constitution is pretty clear on the subject, and as always, I defend the Constitution.

Fuck you, you moronic cocksu-...jmorrison? How'd you get on that side?

I agree with you, I suppose. There are plenty of people that get ass hurt around churches. In much that same way I wouldn't want to attend a meeting at a building that houses any part of the NAACP.

It makes sense I guess. So long as the school had a viable alternative that was decent.

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

No, you replied with
"Only non-religious people do.

I've seen more religious people (not just Christians) do good things for others than I have non-religious people. "

None of which I would argue against in respect to public charity part. However churches are just a business. You want to see the worst of it, take a drive to southern Alabama. Take a drive around your average rural town and ask yourself why the highschool is caving in, or why some people still don't have running water and electricity, but the churches in town look like mega cathedrals. The southern baptist are fucking criminal cocksuckers. They would host a breakfast and serve the athletes meals on the mornings on the games, but they would get that money back 3 fold from the parents the following Sunday. One fucking chuck was bigger and cost 10 times more than a school that held over 500 kids.

Whoopty-fucking-doo, you saw a church lady doing something nice for those in need. That is the individual's credit which is what real spirituality is about anyway. It is a beautiful thing, and what what do everyone good. But, the church is an entity that needs feeding, otherwise it dies. So know damn well that someone has to manage the chuch just like a business in by bringing in new followers (AKA customers), and managing PR.

Fair enough, I didn't grow up in the south. However, I did spend 8 years around Mormons. A church were the leader and working members don't get paid anything unless they're providing a real professional service. People who I've seen give money to people who weren't even in their church. A church that uses an outside accounting firm to prevent financial abuse. That's the type of Christian that I've seen.

**jmorrison** · 06-02-2010, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

Fuck you, you moronic cocksu-...jmorrison? How'd you get on that side?

I agree with you, I suppose. There are plenty of people that get ass hurt around churches. In much that same way I wouldn't want to attend a meeting at a building that houses any part of the NAACP.

It makes sense I guess. So long as the school had a viable alternative that was decent.

That was my liberal twin.

I dont know man, my ideology is so fucked up. One one hand I am anti-gun law, am all for flat tax, am against the healthcare reform, and make a living drilling for oil.

On the other I support gay marriage, separation of church and state, and legalization of marijuana.

I am broken and need some Jesus and Glenn Beck.

**DOMS** · 06-02-2010, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by jmorrison

That was my liberal twin.

I dont know man, my ideology is so fucked up. One one hand I am anti-gun law, am all for flat tax, am against the healthcare reform, and make a living drilling for oil.

On the other I support gay marriage, separation of church and state, and legalization of marijuana.

I am broken and need some Jesus and Glenn Beck.

From what I've heard, no one needs Glenn Beck.

I understand where you come from.

I'm pro-gun; grew up homeless, but hate welfare programs; won't hesitate to give away my last dollar; I'm not incredible religious, but I'm not for complete separation of Church and State; against health reform (it's welfare); I think repeat drunk drivers should have a life time driving ban, but support the legalization of MJ.

I make my money from the IT field and trading options.

We you decide to think for yourself, you don't pigeon-hole.

**Big Smoothy** · 06-02-2010, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by MtnBikerChk

Judge Won't Allow Enfield, Enrico Fermi High Schools To Hold Graduations At Church - Courant.com

A federal judge on Monday ruled that Enfield High School and Enrico Fermi High School will not be able to hold their graduations at First Cathedral, culminating a months-long debate over whether it is unconstitutional to host students' ceremonies at the mega-church.

The fact that a public school would attempt this is disturbing.

Organized religion has no place in the public schools, in my opinion, and there's good reason for it.

What's next?

Have a public graduation in an Islamic atmosphere? Hindu? Jewish? Mormon?

But some students are of different religions, so one group will have a graduation ceremony under one religions atmosphere while others have ones in a different religious atmostphere.

And what about the Diest, agnostics, and non-theists?

**ZECH** · 06-03-2010, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Big Smoothy

Organized religion has no place in the public schools, in my opinion, and there's good reason for it.

I disagree. That is what is wrong with schools. They took God out.
But I digress.

**NeilPearson** · 06-03-2010, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by DOMS

I've seen plenty of churches that have.

... they just take 'donations'

**DOMS** · 06-03-2010, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by NeilPearson-right out of his ass

... they just take 'donations'

Nope.

**MtnBikerChk** · 06-03-2010, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by dg806

I disagree. That is what is wrong with schools. They took God out.
But I digress.

Yeah but my God is different than your God.

Which one(s) should we put back into public schools?

**NeilPearson** · 06-03-2010, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by DOMS

Nope.

Your church turns away donations?

**bio-chem** · 06-03-2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Little Wing

btw it's a pretty good movie.

I'm listening

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