Thread: What are your thoughts on...

Originally Posted by THE_BROSKI

that is what the illumatini want, they want middle class america to become a 3rd world group so they can compete with china

ilumatini? you mean Illuminati? you read too many dan brown novels.

Originally Posted by DOMS

You haven't taken a position on this issue because it doesn't yet directly effect you.

I'll start with my own personal experience.

I spent 6 months in Salt Lake City (SLC) back in 1993. Back then, there were almost no Mexican there. Gun crime was almost nonexistent. They had just appointed their first drug task force (a small group of police). There was also very little graffiti, and even then, most of it was "Skateboarding is not a crime" type stuff.

Then I moved back there from 2000 through 2007. By 2000 there were already a lot more Mexicans there and the crime rate had risen considerably and was continuing to rise.

The Mexicans were initially relegated to the west end of the SLC valley and the west side of Ogden (the second largest city, north of SLC). During my eight years in SLC, I watched as they spread across the valley and the state.

While SLC is the largest city in Utah, Ogden has the highest amount of illegals, and also the highest crime rate in the entire state.

Gun crime became an almost weekly occurrence. It was usually Mexican on Mexican, but it was also Mexican on American.

It's more than just the crime that comes with illegals, it's also the destruction of American neighborhoods. I watched cities such as West Valley erode as the Mexicans migrated eastward into the valley. Once nice, clean, safe neighborhoods became trash strewn, graffiti covered, rundown, and crime filled. I'm not talking about some report or new piece, I watched it encroach on my house. Ultimately, I moved further east into Taylorsville. By 2007, that same Mexican created environment was encroaching there as well.

I watched cities erode right before my eyes.

The logic behind it is simple and irrefutable. Mexicans seeking "a better life" come from a run down third-world country that they can't be bothered to fix or even take care of. They come to a first-world nation and bring the lifestyle that trashed their country to the new one. The don't assimilate or try to live to first-world standards in any way. What I saw happen to those cities was their transformation from first-world standards to third-world standards.

As one person so aptly put it, we're importing poverty.

Add to that the shear numbers of Mexicans that are here. There are upwards of 26 million of them here, with over 600,000 arriving every year. How can such a tidal wave of third-world people not effect the country that they're invading?

Again, I'm not talking about a report or news piece, but the very effect that I've seen happen in SLC. Now, living in Boise, I'm starting to see it here.

As for simple facts, just do a Google search. You'll find the numbers. Billions spent on educating illegals in schools. Billions spent on providing welfare to illegals. Billions spent on illegals in law enforcement and the legal system. A disproportionate amount of crime, especially violent crime, caused by Mexicans. 12 Americans killed every day by illegals. And on, and on, and on.

Again, it comes back to the Mexicans and the place they come from. They can't be bothered to try to clean up their own country or civilization, but I'm supposed to believe that they'll come to the US and magically start living with first-world standards? They're not.

They will continue to spread until it become your problem, too.

All very good logical reasons, and I am for AZ being able to do whatever it wants as a state to protect it's citizens. I have no problem, however, saying to all of the ones that are currently here that they can stay. I assume the illegals who go to jail here end up getting deported or incarcerated, but they all just come back anyway. If they are here illegally in the first place it can't be too difficult. It is all irrelevant anyway, until the federal government seals the border and starts enforcing immigration law no shitty little state laws are going to even make a dent it. If they wanted to do this they would. Thing is, cheap labor is a vital part for some parts of our economy and these people provide that, and the federal government has deemed your plight not big enough to stop it. GOP or Dem it doesn't matter, this issue came up with Bush, it is currently up with Obama, and it will come up and not be dealt with with by the next guy. This is a class thing, not a political thing.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

All very good logical reasons, and I am for AZ being able to do whatever it wants as a state to protect it's citizens. I have no problem, however, saying to all of the ones that are currently here that they can stay. I assume the illegals who go to jail here end up getting deported or incarcerated, but they all just come back anyway. If they are here illegally in the first place it can't be too difficult. It is all irrelevant anyway, until the federal government seals the border and starts enforcing immigration law no shitty little state laws are going to even make a dent it. If they wanted to do this they would. Thing is, cheap labor is a vital part for some parts of our economy and these people provide that, and the federal government has deemed your plight not big enough to stop it. GOP or Dem it doesn't matter, this issue came up with Bush, it is currently up with Obama, and it will come up and not be dealt with with by the next guy. This is a class thing, not a political thing.

First and foremost: you do not reward illegal behavior. They came her illegally. They only thing they deserve is to be rounded up and sent home. If they want to come here, let them do so legally and with due process.

Otherwise, why don't we simply open up our borders to anyone and everyone? We don't for numerous good reasons.

The real reason that the federal government doesn't want Arizona protecting itself is twofold.

First, they (repubs and dems) think they need the so-called Hispanic vote. In other words, they're willing to sellout their country for a few votes, which comes as no surprise to anyone.

The second reason in the long picture, which somewhat ties back into the first point. If there are states where the laws are harsh on illegal, then the illegals will move to states where those laws aren't on the books. States where the people who say they don't care are located. Then it'll be their problem.

As for the various federal administrations not caring: why should their lack of desire translate into Americans not having a right to protect themselves?

I'm telling you Dale, if you could see the problems with your own eyes, you'd care.

seriously, in my opion, if someone is found back in the country for a 2nd time, i think they should seriosuly be shot and there body's thrown on the mexican border, them coming into our country is NO diffrent than a mexican invasion by there miltiary, get the fuck out its illegal

Here's my two cents on the issue... I think there is some serious work that needs to be done with the immigration issue. I live in South LA and I've seen certain parts of LA go down the drain because of illegal immigrants. Some areas have just been run down in the past few years and even on my block people raise farm animals! (I've see geese, chickens, roosters and a goat) As a matter of fact, I still hear roosters every morning before I go to work.

It's something like DOMS mentioned earlier, that it's not the people themselves... meaning it's not some inherent trait that they have, but rather the fact that they won't assimilate into the greater culture and leave off a certain mentality that does not bring progress and betterment. There are plenty of people that come from third-world countries who thrive in America. I know and have worked with people from other third world countries who come over here and build thriving communities, do well in school and contribute to the greater good of the society that they live in.

The US should adopt an immigration policy like I have seen in most other developed countries. They allow people in that will improve the economic/military/etc standing of the country in the eyes of the world. When they find people that are in the country illegally they jail+fine+deport them (My friend just had to deal with that when he overstayed his visa in a certain gulf country). The resources of the US are really being strectched thin right now with two wars and this economic downturn. If the US actually adopted MEXICO's immigration policy it would be considered draconian in our hands!

As for the politicians in this country (the left and the right)... They're all a joke. The Dems want them here because 85 percent of Latinos vote for them. It just increases their voting base. The dems play with these people by always dangling amnesty in front of their faces in exchange for their support, but they'll never actually give that to them. They just expand social services for this new growing class of the working poor in order to make up for that.

As for the repubs... They don't want in increase in illegal immigrants because that hurts their chances of getting into office (85% vote dem). At the same time, they need them here to work in various businesses that exploit them. As we know, the repubs are against gov't intervention and are the champions of free enterprise, so they don't want to step on the toes of business owners who hire them.

Once again I'm not blaming the people themselves, but if you have a group of people who have very little in the way of an education, no knowledge of the English language (or the desire to learn it), and no viable means to support themselves... don't you think that this is going to take a toll on the country? My wife and her family came from Somalia (which I'm SURE is much worse than Mexico) and like everyone else they went about it the correct way and contribute to the growth of the greater community.

Illegal Latino immigrants assimilate at the same rate as the rest of the massive immigration waves in the past...Look at NY and little Italy or Detroit and hamtramck, or Miami and Little Havana. They all speak their old country languages and old country culture. Its really no different. We aren't a melting pot, but a collection of different multicultural pockets.

We let "illegal" immigrants come here in waves from Ireland, Italy, Germany etc...they only difference from the 1800s or 1920s and now is, they just arrived to the US w/o a visa and we simply let them sign the book and gave them citizenship. We no longer do that...remember "give us your poor, your weak, your tired"? We used to formally welcome immigrants to perform labor intensive work...now we (the USG) just welcome it behind closed doors.

If some one comes to the US with a criminal record (outside of illegal border crossing) I'm all for locking them up and deporting their ass once they've served their time...with hard labor hopefully. But there are swaths of illegal immigrants that are here to genuinely better their lives, and I'm not going to deny them that opportunity. My grandfather illegally immigrated to the US as a child from Russia (alone mind you...rest of the family evidently didn't make it out in time)during the Bolshevik Revolution and crossed to Michigan from Canada. He didn't earn his citizenship till his 20s after joining the Marine Corp.

I live about 30min north of the border (south of Tucson) and I see illegal immigrants here ALL the time...border patrol drives through my neighborhood and route to work daily. I don't have a real strong sentiment with the issue to be honest with you...if something comes across a ballot I'll prolly vote with the pro immigration side, but you won't see me voting for a politician whose platform is immigration. We've (the US as a whole) managed to perform well over the past 30+ yrs with mass illegal immigration...I don't see immigration sucking our development dry in the future.

On a side note, I always hear the language issue down here...and I run into VERY frequently. The people will learn that they will need to speak English eventually, otherwise, they'll be doing low paying labor intensive jobs forever. I"m not a fan or forcing English down some one's throat...they (or the next generation) will learn eventually. I've seen it with my Greek family and I've seen it with our friends of mine whose parents come from Asia.

end rant

Let the immigrants come in the legal way. The rest have to cross the new military practice ranges.

Originally Posted by lnvanry

Illegal Latino immigrants assimilate at the same rate as the rest of the massive immigration waves in the past...Look at NY and little Italy or Detroit and hamtramck, or Miami and Little Havana. They all speak their old country languages and old country culture. Its really no different. We aren't a melting pot, but a collection of different multicultural pockets.

We let "illegal" immigrants come here in waves from Ireland, Italy, Germany etc...they only difference from the 1800s or 1920s and now is, they just arrived to the US w/o a visa and we simply let them sign the book and gave them citizenship. We no longer do that...remember "give us your poor, your weak, your tired"? We used to formally welcome immigrants to perform labor intensive work...now we (the USG) just welcome it behind closed doors.

You're missing one major difference between the "then" and "now". The immigrants of old came from other first-world countries, not the third-world. Which goes back to one my major points.

Also, the majority of immigrants in the past came here legally, unlike the Mexicans.