Thread: Shanghai Students Are the World's Best; U.S. Doesn't Crack the Top 15

As someone who has been educated in both systems , I still think American education, though dismal at teaching the basics, fosters more independant thinking and creative "out of the box" mentality. Although, in this day and age of high tech, high complex science , you better get the basics down before embarking on further inroads into quantum technology, molecular biology etc.

What's interesting is that in medicine, more foreigners are now department heads ( you have to have strong reasearch backgrounds as well as clinical) , many of whom are products of early strong science and math education in native countries who later benefitted from the American innovative post graduate atmosphere.

In Taiwan or Japan, if I questioned a teacher it was "disrespectful", here it is encouraged.

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

What's interesting is that in medicine, more foreigners are now department heads .

Im sure many of those department heads you call 'foreigners' consider themselves American the same way I do.

One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion.

We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.

Originally Posted by fufu

One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion.

We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.

Science can't even define itself right now. It pisses me off the problems we have developed in modern science right now. ill leave before i jump too fully upon my soap box

Originally Posted by fufu

One of the biggest downfalls in the USA education system is that there is no clear explanation of how the scientific method functions...nor is there any discussion of the values of skepticism and informed opinion.

We have several "science classes", but you'd be surprised how many people cannot define what science is.

I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory" " fact" etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language.

Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.

Look at how scientific "theory" has been hijacked by creationists. It is not "unproven" ideas, it is a well evidenced exposition of natural phenomenon. In fact, there is more experimental proof for evolution than the current gravitational theory. People think a scientific "law" is a rule that cannot be broken. For example, the second law of thermodynamics is a law but there are many instances of "breaking" it. Look at snowflakes, thanks to non linear dynamics and complexity theory.

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Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory" " fact" etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language.

Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.

Look at how scientific "theory" has been hijacked by creationists. It is not "unproven" ideas, it is a well evidenced exposition of natural phenomenon. In fact, there is more experimental proof for evolution than the current gravitational theory. People think a scientific "law" is a rule that cannot be broken. For example, the second law of thermodynamics is a law but there are many instances of "breaking" it. Look at snowflakes, thanks to non linear dynamics and complexity theory.

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Get religion out of science and there will be less road blocks.

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Get religion out of science and there will be less road blocks.

I've never understood why the animosity people bring to this subject? one is for universities the other for churches. they are not mutually exclusive. one does not prove nor disprove the other. we are learning new things about our world and space around us everyday, and we definitely don't have a perfect understanding of God. It is our lack of understanding and ignorance of both that lead to confusion.

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I blame the english language which uses "laws", " theory" " fact" etc. differently in the field of science than in the rest of the english language.

Honestly, when I learned english these scientific terms in english confused the hell out of me.

Look at how scientific "theory" has been hijacked by creationists. It is not "unproven" ideas, it is a well evidenced exposition of natural phenomenon. In fact, there is more experimental proof for evolution than the current gravitational theory. People think a scientific "law" is a rule that cannot be broken. For example, the second law of thermodynamics is a law but there are many instances of "breaking" it. Look at snowflakes, thanks to non linear dynamics and complexity theory.

That's a starter





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I agree. Science is not meant to be a dogma. It is simply a gathering of evidence based information that develops the "best idea" of what occurs in nature. We never truly "know", but science is a compass that directs us to good ideas, and then to better ideas.

Stem cell research, are they not against it?

lol

Originally Posted by LAM

"I'm kind of stunned, I'm thinking Sputnik," said Chester Finn Jr., a former Assistant Secretary of Education. (snip)

Shanghai Students Are the World's Best; U.S. Doesn't Crack the Top 15 | The Atlantic Wire

Finn shouldn't be surprised.

Dramatic change needs to take place.

From the OP Article:

Results Are Stunning The New York Times quotes a number of gobsmacked education officials. "I'm kind of stunned, I'm thinking Sputnik,"

If anyone is stunned then they have been asleep.

This is no surprise.

As someone who is living and teaching children, high school, Uni students, and business people in East Asia, I notice the massive difference in.

motivation
valuing education

compared to the US.

If any policy makers are surprised it's because obviously, they have not been paying attention.

Honestly, I find this very common in the US, when it comes to just about everything.

Excuse my LAM for slightly digressing from your OP, but here is more evidence that reinforces Curt's "Changing Paradigms."

World's 5 biggest airlines now from Asia, LatAm
Email this Story

Dec 14, 7:22 AM (ET)

By FRANK JORDANS


GENEVA (AP) - The world's five biggest airlines now hail from Asia and Latin America, highlighting the industry's shift away from the U.S. and Europe to higher-growth countries, the International Air Transport Association said Tuesday.

Air China is twice the size of either Delta in the U.S. or Germany's Lufthansa. But despite emerging markets' strength and a broad earnings rebound this year, weak economic conditions in Europe and low margins are acting as a drag on profits, the group warned.

"The world is changing in aviation, and it's changing very, very quickly," IATA Chief Executive Giovanni Bisignani told a news conference in Geneva. "Rapidly developing markets are shifting the industry's center of gravity to the East."

Entire: My Way News - World's 5 biggest airlines now from Asia, LatAm

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Stem cell research, are they not against it?

I don't know who you mean by "they" but i think my record is pretty well known and I'm for it.

Originally Posted by fufu

I agree. Science is not meant to be a dogma. It is simply a gathering of evidence based information that develops the "best idea" of what occurs in nature. We never truly "know", but science is a compass that directs us to good ideas, and then to better ideas.

therein lies the biggest difference between science and religion that if people just keep apart would be fine as biochem stated. One is intrinsically dogmatic the other isn't.

Science is never dogmatic,understanding of the basic underlying universe changes drastically ( not without kiccking and screaming but it changes nevertheless as the scientific method wins over preconceptions...look at quantum physics and how it shook up einstein's and many scientist's core belief system.) Religion is almost always dogmatic, Mohammed is a prophet, there is only one god, only through Jesus can we be saved etc. ( why not multiple gods as quantum physics shows us there are multiple realities?). Certain sects of hinduism and buddism are not as dogmatic but they are not the majority.

Originally Posted by bio-chem

I've never understood why the animosity people bring to this subject? one is for universities the other for churches. they are not mutually exclusive. one does not prove nor disprove the other. we are learning new things about our world and space around us everyday, and we definitely don't have a perfect understanding of God. It is our lack of understanding and ignorance of both that lead to confusion.

So, you don't understand why science minded people have animosity towards jerks interfering with their scientific progress? Right.


Lets see. How about creationist trying to push to have fantasy land mumbo jumbo taught in legitimate science classes. How about the incessant bitching and complaining about how scientist are playing god. How about religious tards legislating laws, and pushing for regulations to shutdown stem-cell research.

I don't try to dissect frogs in your Sunday school class, keep your fucking religion out of our classrooms and science labs.

Originally Posted by KelJu

So, you don't understand why science minded people have animosity towards jerks interfering with their scientific progress? Right.


Lets see. How about creationist trying to push to have fantasy land mumbo jumbo taught in legitimate science classes. How about the incessant bitching and complaining about how scientist are playing god. How about religious tards legislating laws, and pushing for regulations to shutdown stem-cell research.

I don't try to dissect frogs in your Sunday school class, keep your fucking religion out of our classrooms and science labs.

As an individual scientifically trained, and who goes to church on Sundays i can say this. fuck you. it goes both ways, you know that, and you know that was the point i was trying to make. each has their place, and they compliment each other much more than either side is capable of realizing because both sides have thrown up walls due to the fact they don't properly understand the other. so come down off your mountain there kelju and understand what I'm saying before you get your cross dressing panties in a bunch

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

In Taiwan or Japan, if I questioned a teacher it was "disrespectful", here it is encouraged.

I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning. However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.

Originally Posted by GearsMcGilf

I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning. However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.

Isn't it interesting what some cultures will emphasize over others, or what will be considered acceptable or rude? Honestly I prefer the fact that we reward critical thinking, or questioning a teacher. I'm sure I allow my biases to enter into this topic, but now that I work in industry I can accept the need for employees to exhibit this behavior. memorization of rote is a part of learning, but can only go so far in preparing an individual for the job environment.

Originally Posted by GearsMcGilf

I noticed this when teaching in China last year. I couldn't get the students to speak in class, much less actually disagree with me, even when I practically begged them to. I got the impression that they weren't getting much more out of their education that rote learning. However, they somehow were led to believe that cheating right under the teacher's nose wasn't disrespectful and seemed shocked when I'd yank a quiz or exam off of their desk and rip it up when they attepmted to swap papers with another student. Their excuse was that it was supposed to be flattering for the teacher when they went to such lengths to do well in the class. I found them overall, to be extremely disrespectful and their manners in class were appalling. These kids were 20+ years old and behaved like 7th or 8th graders.

I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.

maybe we can learn something from the crazy chinese?

Originally Posted by bio-chem

As an individual scientifically trained, and who goes to church on Sundays i can say this. fuck you. it goes both ways, you know that, and you know that was the point i was trying to make. each has their place, and they compliment each other much more than either side is capable of realizing because both sides have thrown up walls due to the fact they don't properly understand the other. so come down off your mountain there kelju and understand what I'm saying before you get your cross dressing panties in a bunch

So what. I am a scientifically minded person who was raised Baptist. That doesn't make me an expert on creationism. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation. You can't take the moral high ground on this. What you said was retarded.

How can you honestly say that you don't understand where the animosity comes from? Scientist have devoted their lives to their research, and all of a sudden out from right field comes religious retards who know nothing of the science telling them what they can and can't do in a lab. Then add to that how conservative republicans slashed science funding to scientist who who doing cutting edge research which drove much of that technology over seas.

And still we have to have this god damn intelligent design argument every so many years. Do you think intelligent design should be taught in a class dedicated to science? My panties aren't in a wad, you are being a tard.

Originally Posted by KelJu

So what. I am a scientifically minded person who was raised Baptist. That doesn't make me an expert on creationism. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation. You can't take the moral high ground on this. What you said was retarded.

How can you honestly say that you don't understand where the animosity comes from? Scientist have devoted their lives to their research, and all of a sudden out from right field comes religious retards who know nothing of the science telling them what they can and can't do in a lab. Then add to that how conservative republicans slashed science funding to scientist who who doing cutting edge research which drove much of that technology over seas.

And still we have to have this god damn intelligent design argument every so many years. Do you think intelligent design should be taught in a class dedicated to science? My panties aren't in a wad, you are being a tard.

No I don't think intelligent design should be taught in a classroom. God in Churches, science in classrooms. I've already said that. I also don't think those in science who don't believe in God should spend their time preaching against God. Something I've been the witness of on many occasions. I can't count how many times an atheist scientist will be the first to bring up God. As if somehow science can disprove God both sides are in the wrong on this. Biggest problem in science right now is scientists let their current biases color their science. defeating the purpose of science to begin with.

you are only seeing this from one angle right now Kelju. your experiences with religion are well known, and i can see why you believe the way you do. but this is a Jew/Muslim type issue. both sides are in the wrong in many points and without recognizing that more walls are thrown up and less effective discussion is the result. Thinking that one side is completely in the right and the other wholly wrong shows why there is so much animosity when there doesn't need to be

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.

I felt like beating the shit out of some of them also. These were 2nd and 3rd level students. These were the kids that didn't make the scores to get into a 1st level school like Jilin University, but their parents had $. There were up to 150 students in the classes and the ones who sat toward to back generally couldn't understand WTF I was saying cause they cheated their way thru english class.

Originally Posted by GearsMcGilf

I felt like beating the shit out of some of them also. These were 2nd and 3rd level students. These were the kids that didn't make the scores to get into a 1st level school like Jilin University, but their parents had $. There were up to 150 students in the classes and the ones who sat toward to back generally couldn't understand WTF I was saying cause they cheated their way thru english class.

looks like china has the same problems as the US with its students

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I hate to say this but I think they are disrespectul because you are a whitey american.... with that said if we cheated they beat the hell out of us to the point of criminal abuse..... but things may have changed since I was a teenager.

I think one of the biggest problems with the American educational system is the teachers are operating without a net. A student can act out a disrupt class to no end, yet there is often no functional system in place to deal with the problem. Teachers are not allowed to discipline students, and the administrators don't want to deal with the problem. So students learn pretty quickly they can get away with most anything. I'm not suggesting beatings by any means, but there must be some system of accountability in place to deal with problem students. We have taken control of the classroom away from the teacher, and the kids know it. Now the government wants to pay teachers according to student performance on state and federally mandated standardized testing. The whole system is broken, and many of the best teachers are being driven out of the classroom because of the ineptitude of those making the decisions. The saddest thing is that students who want to learn are not allowed to do so because of the endless distractions of those who have no interest in being there.

it's because all these new teachers keep trying to reinvent the wheel......we need to go back to repetition and old tactics......drill, drill, drill.....

The US has already fallen behind economically to China in terms of real GDP growth now with greater decreases in education nationwide.

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China is investing Trillions of dollars in education while the US is slashing it from the University level on down.

China's foreign trade and economic growth in empirical research - New Economics Papers - Papers Download Center