Thread: H.R.4 Bill Passed by GOP Increases Budget Defictit by 21B over 10 years

Please correct me if I'm reading it wrong. In essence it's a tax cut. Therefore, if they leave spending at its current rate while also cutting taxes our deficit will go up. That's true.

But what you're not taking into consideration is that the same folks who put this bull up are ALSO trying to decrease spending. If they are successful that will affect deficit REDUCTION.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Please correct me if I'm reading it wrong. In essence it's a tax cut. Therefore, if they leave spending at its current rate while also cutting taxes our deficit will go up. That's true.

But what you're not taking into consideration is that the same folks who put this bull up are ALSO trying to decrease spending. If they are successful that will affect deficit REDUCTION.

So if you are trying to fill in a hole in the ground, do you think it is in the best interest of filling that hole to dump a couple of shovels full of dirt into a different hole that you don't need to fill?

Tax cuts don't spur investment in a recession, they spur saving, which does nobody any good other than the asshole you gave the cut to. In fact, IMO, tax cuts must not really spur any sort of investment or growth because if they did we would be in the most prosperous of times yet here we are, in the midst of basically the second worst financial crisis in our country's history and taxes are at an all-time low.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

So if you are trying to fill in a hole in the ground, do you think it is in the best interest of filling that hole to dump a couple of shovels full of dirt into a different hole that you don't need to fill?

Tax cuts don't spur investment in a recession, they spur saving, which does nobody any good other than the asshole you gave the cut to. In fact, IMO, tax cuts must not really spur any sort of investment or growth because if they did we would be in the most prosperous of times yet here we are, in the midst of basically the second worst financial crisis in our country's history and taxes are at an all-time low.

While every bit of that may be true, it's got nothing to do with the OP. They're saying that these tax cuts will increase the deficit by $21B over the next ten years. I agreed that was true on the surface BUT, they didn't take into account the fact that the same people proposing the cuts are also trying to cut spending. If they're going to tell a story, tell the WHOLE story. Not just the portion that supports their opinion.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

While every bit of that may be true, it's got nothing to do with the OP. They're saying that these tax cuts will increase the deficit by $21B over the next ten years. I agreed that was true on the surface BUT, they didn't take into account the fact that the same people proposing the cuts are also trying to cut spending. If they're going to tell a story, tell the WHOLE story. Not just the portion that supports their opinion.

That's true, but I still think it's beyond irresponsible at this point to be suggesting either additional spending OR revenue loss (tax cuts) without already having a plan for paying for said actions that don't add to our deficit/debt.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

While every bit of that may be true, it's got nothing to do with the OP. They're saying that these tax cuts will increase the deficit by $21B over the next ten years. I agreed that was true on the surface BUT, they didn't take into account the fact that the same people proposing the cuts are also trying to cut spending. If they're going to tell a story, tell the WHOLE story. Not just the portion that supports their opinion.

But that takes the $61 billion they were supposed to save, actually, wasn't it supposed to be $100 billion, down to $40billion. Makes as much sense as someone celebrating their fiscal responsibility by buying $5000 rims.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

But that takes the $61 billion they were supposed to save, actually, wasn't it supposed to be $100 billion, down to $40billion. Makes as much sense as someone celebrating their fiscal responsibility by buying $5000 rims.

I couldn't disagree with you more. A $40B savings is a $40B savings, PERIOD. Maybe not as much as hoped for but, still better than what's been happening the past two years.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

I couldn't disagree with you more. A $40B savings is a $40B savings, PERIOD. Maybe not as much as hoped for but, still better than what's been happening the past two years.

Perfect, a 15 trillion dollar debt will be paid in full in approximately 375 years at a rate of saving $40 bilion a year. That is of course, if we weren't overspending by $1 trillion on an annual basis already.

See, this is what gets me...You hear all of this talk about the deficit is our biggest concern from the GOP. It is truly only a concern when it comes to reducing government services, when it comes to giving rich people more money it isn't really a concern at all. IMO, the GOP is in for a nice little swat from the people who elected them once these people figure this out. Judging by the intelligence and capacity for rational thinking of the American people, that should only take until the next ice age or until pigs sprout wings and fly.

No intelligent person would say that the best way to get started on paying your debt is to drastically cut all expenditures regardless of utility, and then cut your intake of cash flow. Not one.

Although, in my infinite wisdom I never noticed that the GOP never really pledged to cut the deficit, they only pledged to cut spending. Pretty smart, but not really useful to 90% of the population.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Judging by the intelligence and capacity for rational thinking of the American people, that should only take until the next ice age or until pigs sprout wings and fly.

Only when it smacks them in the face, people get blinded by the media smoke scene and when it clears up they act surprised.

Wisconsin is a perfect example, a democratic state voted that CEO puppet in and now they regret it, Knowing his past.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Perfect, a 15 trillion dollar debt will be paid in full in approximately 375 years at a rate of saving $40 bilion a year. That is of course, if we weren't overspending by $1 trillion on an annual basis already.

See, this is what gets me...You hear all of this talk about the deficit is our biggest concern from the GOP. It is truly only a concern when it comes to reducing government services, when it comes to giving rich people more money it isn't really a concern at all. IMO, the GOP is in for a nice little swat from the people who elected them once these people figure this out. Judging by the intelligence and capacity for rational thinking of the American people, that should only take until the next ice age or until pigs sprout wings and fly.

No intelligent person would say that the best way to get started on paying your debt is to drastically cut all expenditures regardless of utility, and then cut your intake of cash flow. Not one.

If the cuts stay at that level, you're correct. But you're ignoring the fact that this is just a start. Besides, what's the alternative? Keep on spending like the drunken sailors of the past two years?

(Plenty of very intelligent people disagree with you. )

Also realize this HAS to be a compromise. The Rs only control 1/3 of the gubmint. Do you think Harry Reid and Obama are just gonna throw up thier hands and say "Do whatever you want"?

Originally Posted by ALBOB

If the cuts stay at that level, you're correct. But you're ignoring the fact that this is just a start. Besides, what's the alternative? Keep on spending like the drunken sailors of the past two years?

(Plenty of very intelligent people disagree with you. )

Also realize this HAS to be a compromise. The Rs only control 1/3 of the gubmint. Do you think Harry Reid and Obama are just gonna throw up thier hands and say "Do whatever you want"?

Now you know common sense does not matter in this forum and there is none. Might as well be talking to a damn brick wall.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Besides, what's the alternative? Keep on spending like the drunken sailors of the past two years?

IMO, that is exactly what's going to happen. if the Dems and GOP haven't been able to get together in 50-60 years it surely isn't going to happen now..the GOP won't stop the welfare to corporate American and the DEM's can't cut the welfare to the every increasing poor population in the US, it's exactly why we are in this predicament. we need to do a 180 in spending and economic reform and that just isn't going to happen.

the banks that were allowed to become to big to fail has anyone heard a peep about them being dismantled and the legislation repealed that allowed it to happen? nope, not a single word....

Originally Posted by LAM

IMO, that is exactly what's going to happen. if the Dems and GOP haven't been able to get together in 50-60 years it surely isn't going to happen now..the GOP won't stop the welfare to corporate American and the DEM's can't cut the welfare to the every increasing poor population in the US, it's exactly why we are in this predicament. we need to do a 180 in spending and economic reform and that just isn't going to happen.

the banks that were allowed to become to big to fail has anyone heard a peep about them being dismantled and the legislation repealed that allowed it to happen? nope, not a single word....

While I fear you may be correct, I'm gonna try to remain positive. I don't give a rat's ass what party a candidate is from, I'm voting for the person who I think is the most fiscally responsible. That may or may not help the situation but, it's all I've got for now.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

If the cuts stay at that level, you're correct. But you're ignoring the fact that this is just a start. Besides, what's the alternative? Keep on spending like the drunken sailors of the past two years?

(Plenty of very intelligent people disagree with you. )

Also realize this HAS to be a compromise. The Rs only control 1/3 of the gubmint. Do you think Harry Reid and Obama are just gonna throw up thier hands and say "Do whatever you want"?

Lets say they make $40 billion in cuts this year, and an extra $100 billion a year every year after, which will never happen because they can't even get to $100 billion with all of this voter anger. At that rate, we will be just about breaking even on an annual basis in 11 years, and our debt will be a measly $19 trillion. And, if we can somehow run a budget surplus after that, we can get crackin' on that $19 trillion. Never mind the fact that in the last year this would mean we cut our annual deficit by 60% from this year which will never happen. I can't really get a grip on how anyone would think that is intelligent, especially since we go around starting wars and bailing out wall street.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Lets say they make $40 billion in cuts this year, and an extra $100 billion a year every year after, which will never happen because they can't even get to $100 billion with all of this voter anger. At that rate, we will be just about breaking even on an annual basis in 11 years, and our debt will be a measly $19 trillion. And, if we can somehow run a budget surplus after that, we can get crackin' on that $19 trillion. Never mind the fact that in the last year this would mean we cut our annual deficit by 60% from this year which will never happen. I can't really get a grip on how anyone would think that is intelligent, especially since we go around starting wars and bailing out wall street.

So you think it would be better to just keep on rockin' and printing money like there's no tomorrow? How is THAT intelligent???

Originally Posted by ALBOB

So you think it would be better to just keep on rockin' and printing money like there's no tomorrow? How is THAT intelligent???

No, cut spending, raise taxes...on everyone, but especially those assholes on wall street who caused a lot of this and still get those ridiculous bonuses. We are in need of increased revenue, and I think trickle-down has been tried and failed enough times that we can put that one to bed.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

raise taxes....

Yep, that's exactly what we need when we're teetering on the brink of a full blown depression. You're nothing if not entertaining.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Yep, that's exactly what we need when we're teetering on the brink of a full blown depression. You're nothing if not entertaining.

How do you respond to someone like Warren Buffet who advocates a higher tax rate for people with wealth on his level?

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

No, cut spending, raise taxes...on everyone, but especially those assholes on wall street who caused a lot of this and still get those ridiculous bonuses. We are in need of increased revenue, and I think trickle-down has been tried and failed enough times that we can put that one to bed.

the trickle down effect starts when the super rich own 100% which should be in about 5-10 years...

I think profits on short selling stock on US company's should be taxed so high it's completely discouraged. hedge funds should be abolished. and with the exception of commodities and futures trading you shouldn't be able to trade or sell anything that isn't tangible..which means no more derivatives, etc...

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Yep, that's exactly what we need when we're teetering on the brink of a full blown depression. You're nothing if not entertaining.

Oh yeah, I forgot those millionaires and billionaires were creating all these jobs, and the banks are falling over themselves to lend money to everyone. Admit it, trickle down is utter bullshit, and with that being essentially known, leaving money in the hands of people who have no intention in spending it is just plain horrible for the economy. Is it fair? Absolutely not, but the gov has to make decisions on a daily basis that are unpopular with lots of people. Not to mention by cutting services you are taking money away from people who will spend it because they need vital things like food, shelter, etc. I guarantee within the next 6 months taxes will be raised. Whether that is masqueraded in the form of tax reform or not is irrelevant. Hell you have both Ben Stein AND Reagan's former budget director saying it is vital to raise taxes, and now.

Originally Posted by danzik17

How do you respond to someone like Warren Buffet who advocates a higher tax rate for people with wealth on his level?

By pointing out his hypocrisy. Sure, he can spout that drivel a thousand times a day because he knows it's not going to affect him in the least. He's already gone on record saying he only pays about 17% after his accountants get done. It's like the guy who owns the only house upstream from a dam. He doesn't see the need to pay for inspections to test the structural integrity of the dam. But you can bet your ass those who live DOWNstream think that would be money well spent.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

No, cut spending, raise taxes...on everyone, but especially those assholes on wall street who caused a lot of this and still get those ridiculous bonuses. We are in need of increased revenue, and I think trickle-down has been tried and failed enough times that we can put that one to bed.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Oh yeah, I forgot those millionaires and billionaires were creating all these jobs, and the banks are falling over themselves to lend money to everyone. Admit it, trickle down is utter bullshit, and with that being essentially known, leaving money in the hands of people who have no intention in spending it is just plain horrible for the economy. Is it fair? Absolutely not, but the gov has to make decisions on a daily basis that are unpopular with lots of people. Not to mention by cutting services you are taking money away from people who will spend it because they need vital things like food, shelter, etc. I guarantee within the next 6 months taxes will be raised. Whether that is masqueraded in the form of tax reform or not is irrelevant. Hell you have both Ben Stein AND Reagan's former budget director saying it is vital to raise taxes, and now.

Make up your mind, I'm getting dizzy from all your spin. Are you just gonna tax those evil rich people or are you gonna tax EVERYONE? And just out of curiosity, who gets to decide what exactly constitutes "rich"?

(And just as a matter of accuracy, I never called for tax cuts. My only point is that stopping the wreckless spending should be the #1 priority. You can tax everyone in the country 75% and you'll still go bankrupt if you spend 80%. "Any intelligent person could see that.")

There are 6 main things that could reduce spending and reduce the deficit. Enforce federal laws on illegal immigration. Reform social security. Boot out welfare fraud for people undeserving. Reduce unemployment benefits from 2yrs (rediculous) to 3 months max. Break government union strangle-holds over cities. Abolish NAFTA.

Both sides of the isle wont do this because their a bunch of pandering pussies. This requires tough choices and taking away goodies government has been handing out to a populations belief that they are entitlements. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those are our entitlements and those alone. A third of our wages are blatent handouts. We cannot sustain this country on that fact alone.

News Headlines

Higher Taxes Won't Reduce the Deficit
Stephen Moore and Richard Vedder: Higher Taxes Won't Reduce the Deficit - WSJ.com

Originally Posted by phosphor

Both sides of the isle wont do this because their a bunch of pandering pussies. This requires tough choices and taking away goodies government has been handing out to a populations belief that they are entitlements. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those are our entitlements and those alone. A third of our wages are blatent handouts. We cannot sustain this country on that fact alone.

News Headlines

That's what they want. Government dependency is modern slavery. You don't need to chain people up if they have nowhere else to go. The more dependent you are on someone the more control they have over you. If they provide your food, they control what you eat; if they provide where you live, they control how you live.

^^^^ I agree with you. Instant voting base for the cost of one nation.