Thread: Guns vs. Government - the discussion of violence in the U.S. and abroad

Lam, I know you are up for this post.

Take a look at states (or cities) that allow CCW and states that don't. Last time I checked (and was told in class) was that the crime rate was much higher in states that made it impossible to have a CCW or to even own a gun. Think about it, if your in a state where anyone without a record and whos sane can get a weapons permit, your going to think twice before doing something stupid. That's just one example.

the main problem is simply that the US is a violent country AND there is easy access to firearms this is just not a good combination. the country was founded on violence, we are always warring with somebody on the globe, tv shows, video games, etc. many people can draw the distinction between reality and fantasy many can not. then add in the ever increasing population of people in the US with mental health problems that still legally have the right to purchase firearms.

I'm all for 1st Amend rights but in reality they are not really applicable in the time we live in. besides various acts of terrorism (which can never be stopped) there hasn't been a true enemy combatant on US soil since the British landed in the late 1700's.

according to the DOJ the majority of violent crime at 80-90% happens away from the home so having arms at home does very little to prevent this. having civilians armed in public isn't a good idea either to combat the threat outside of the home, this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.

there are tons of studies that show the obvious connection with poverty and increased street crime/violent crimes and/or murders with firearms.

* on a personal note I avoid the places and people that seem to be associated with gun crimes in public as best i can. I have a CCW but do not carry in public I am not that paranoid but I am always armed.

anyone that breaks into my house is leaving in a body bag...

Lam, spot on for the most part but you are so wrong when you say the enemy is not on our soil. The taliban are recruiting people everyday through the Internet for acts of terror in America. Just a disagreement

I also it would be a good thing to be able to stand as one if the shit ever hits the fan in the US. Guns are more of a commodity to me.

Originally Posted by Killermonkey

Lam, spot on for the most part but you are so wrong when you say the enemy is not on our soil. The taliban are recruiting people everyday through the Internet for acts of terror in America. Just a disagreement

granted that many of us are displeased with the government in many ways I think the people that fall into this category are already severely mentally disturbed. random acts of terrorism against civilians especially are acts of desperation, they will never and have never solved any problems.

Originally Posted by LAM

I'm all for 1st Amend rights but in reality they are not really applicable in the time we live in. besides various acts of terrorism (which can never be stopped) there hasn't been a true enemy combatant on US soil since the British landed in the late 1700's. Pearl Harbor

this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.
anyone want to show examples of where CCW holders are using their guns inappropriately and causing more harm than good? Where are the problems CCW holders are causing? anyone? anyone?

I realise that when semi-automatics were banned here it was only the law abiding citizens who handed them in but it still makes sense on a logical basis as well as in the statistics.

I must add that hand guns have always been tightly regulated. So tight that very, very few people have them in comparison to the population.

it doesn't make sense at all. none at all. what works in england doesn't work in the US.

Originally Posted by bio-chem

it doesn't make sense at all. none at all. what works in england doesn't work in the US.

What makes you so certain about that?

Originally Posted by LAM

this causes an array of other problems when you are talking about civilians whom are not weapons experts discharging firearms in public.

I'm sorry, but I can't let this fallacy go without a proper response.

Civilians who are not weapons experts? By whose standards? On average I would place an average CCW holders skills above the average police officers. there are countless stories of police officers with accidental discharges. how many instances of improper/illegal firearm use do we have for CCW holders? I want to see statistics. LAM you are great about posting stats. lets see em.

I want everyone to know i'm not bashing police here. many of the friends I train with at my MMA gym are cops. I love to go shooting with these guys. I know plenty of CCW holders who are much more proficient with firearms than the average police officer. Many police officers shoot the minimum amount necessary to qualify with their carry weapons. CCW holders are well known for being safe with their weapons. The idea/thought/or insinuation that CCW holders are in some way dangerous, or they are just looking for a reason to pull out there weapon is completely false, and irresponsible to suggest.

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

What makes you so certain about that?

you said so yourself. Criminals don't hand in their weapons. therefor it doesn't make any sense by any stretch that banning handguns here in the US would reduce crime. State by state, the more armed the law abiding civilian populace is the lower the crime rate. that is the truth of America.

Originally Posted by bio-chem

I'm sorry, but I can't let this fallacy go without a proper response.

Civilians who are not weapons experts? By whose standards? On average I would place an average CCW holders skills above the average police officers. there are countless stories of police officers with accidental discharges. how many instances of improper/illegal firearm use do we have for CCW holders? I want to see statistics. LAM you are great about posting stats. lets see em.

I want everyone to know i'm not bashing police here. many of the friends I train with at my MMA gym are cops. I love to go shooting with these guys. I know plenty of CCW holders who are much more proficient with firearms than the average police officer. Many police officers shoot the minimum amount necessary to qualify with their carry weapons. CCW holders are well known for being safe with their weapons. The idea/thought/or insinuation that CCW holders are in some way dangerous, or they are just looking for a reason to pull out there weapon is completely false, and irresponsible to suggest.

have you ever been in combat?

because I have seen first hand people trained for combat choke. the average person is not trained mentally for this so how could armed masses of "regular" people not trained for combat possibly help?

as a competent martial artist I have easily disarmed every single person I know that is not LE that carry's in public. because of this most of them do not carry anymore. conversely I have also seen skilled martial artits in the dojo get their asses handed to them on the street by the untrained individual.

once thing is for sure is that more violence doesn't stop violence. the best way is to prevent it from occurring from occurring in the first place.

violence on Columbia has been reduced by 70% in the past decades as they are making great progress in reducing poverty.

Originally Posted by Killermonkey

Guns are more of a commodity to me.

I'm pretty much the same. growing up in rural PA hunting was a regular part of life there so I grew up with guns. my love for the rifle is the challenge of being able to hit that target consistently form greater distances, with wind, etc. just another skill to master.

Originally Posted by LAM

have you ever been in combat?

because I have seen first hand people trained for combat choke. the average person is not trained mentally for this so how could armed masses of "regular" people not trained for combat possibly help?

as a competent martial artist I have easily disarmed every single person I know that is not LE that carry's in public. because of this most of them do not carry anymore. conversely I have also seen skilled martial artits in the dojo get their asses handed to them on the street by the untrained individual.

once thing is for sure is that more violence doesn't stop violence. the best way is to prevent it from occurring from occurring in the first place.

violence on Columbia has been reduced by 70% in the past decades as they are making great progress in reducing poverty.

again. show me where CCW holders have caused problems? show me an instance?

CCW holders are not "regular" people.

I once had a "competent martial artist" tell me he could disarm me. with both dummy knives and handguns he lost 10/10 He pretty much ended up looking like Jim Carrey in that SNL skit. most criminals are not "competent marital artists" trained to disarm

In the two instances I was forced to use my MMA training outside of the gym it saved my ass both times against unskilled adversaries that were much larger than me. both times I walked away unscathed and the guys who attacked me walked away.

I'll take a CCW holder and a guy who trains in MMA every single time in an unexpected situation with a criminal attempting to commit a crime.

Originally Posted by bio-chem

again. show me where CCW holders have caused problems? show me an instance?

CCW holders are not "regular" people.

I once had a "competent martial artist" tell me he could disarm me. with both dummy knives and handguns he lost 10/10 He pretty much ended up looking like Jim Carrey in that SNL skit. most criminals are not "competent marital artists" trained to disarm

In the two instances I was forced to use my MMA training outside of the gym it saved my ass both times against unskilled adversaries that were much larger than me. both times I walked away unscathed and the guys who attacked me walked away.

I'll take a CCW holder and a guy who trains in MMA every single time in an unexpected situation with a criminal attempting to commit a crime.

first where did I ever say the problem was with CCW holders. I said armed citizens armed in public, plenty of people carry w/o a CCW.

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries

Lam, I disagree with with you on another thing here. You said violence doesn't stop violence. If I see someone who deserves to be put down because of an analysis that he/she might be harming innocent civilians then violence would stop violence- by comparison, that thing in Oslo. If someone was just armed they could have potentially saved so many innocent lives.

Maybe I am taking you post's context wrong, I don't know for sure. But in an earlier post you said " whoever breaks in my house leaves in a body bag" , if that's true that is contraditing on e of you latest posts.

But I will say that even trained specialists can choke in combat. The military and law enforcement reduce their standards when trying to fill numbers for new hires. Special forces was like that when I went though it and the cadre even told us that. If they can't qualify the needed number candidates, then make the course easier. Sad but true

Originally Posted by Killermonkey

Lam, I disagree with with you on another thing here. You said violence doesn't stop violence. If I see someone who deserves to be put down because of an analysis that he/she might be harming innocent civilians then violence would stop violence- by comparison, that thing in Oslo. If someone was just armed they could have potentially saved so many innocent lives.

Maybe I am taking you post's context wrong, I don't know for sure. But in an earlier post you said " whoever breaks in my house leaves in a body bag" , if that's true that is contraditing on e of you latest posts.

you are stopping that particular person from committing future violence but you are not reducing the chances of others in the future from committing it.

I see what you are saying now

a perfect example of desperation in modern day are the pirates off the cost of Somalia. those men where happy fisherman but that country has no navy to enforce coastal boundaries, the japanese fishing trawlers came and wiped out the fish. now since they have lost their means of supporting the family they turned to piracy.

remember the Pareto principle holds true in most things so 80% of the crime is committed by 20% of the individuals. there are generally 2 types of criminals: the career criminal (the 20%ter) and the one that has turned to a lone act of crime in desperation. one can be reduced with a more healthy society the other can not.

If you give loaded gun to peole like Gandhi, he will never use it. If you hide loaded gun from Hitler, he will find it and use it. I know both of these people are dead, but you know what I mean. Just because of few assholes, everyone should not be punished.

Like chubbs said, there are bad apples everywhere. It is just something we have to deal with. Just like motor vehicles, people are destined to get behind the and commit manslaughter but you can't take away the rights to drive a vehicle right?

Most people know how to handle weapons just as most people know how to handle motor vehicles.

I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.

Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.

And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.

Originally Posted by myCATpowerlifts

I think plenty of shootings that have occured by civilians could have been avoided if they had not had access to a gun.

Sometimes people get so angry that they lose their mind for a bit.

And in these cases, if they had not had access to a gun, maybe they would have had a chance to cool down and not commited a murder.

I can't argue with that. All I know is that I am sane and I love my guns and the laws are fine to me.

I'm considering getting a handgun soon...what would you recommend for a first timer?
I have shot .22's, 9mm, revolvers...
thought they were all fun.
owned a 20 gauge shotgun when i was younger

But that's the extent of my experience with real guns.

I want one thats medium-small and light weight but also fun to shoot (practice targets).

depends if it's going to be just for target or possible future use for concealed carry or home defense. nothing smaller than a .380 for personal protection IMO. and definetly nothing like a .50 dessert eagle those things are garbage