Does prayer have any effect?

**exphys88** · 11-01-2011, 09:24 AM

For all you bible thumpers that believe that prayer will statistically change the likelihood of something happening or not, here is a great study done by a christian organization.

The templeton foundation (christian) wanted to prove that having people pray for cardiac patients going under for bypass would improve their outcome. Unfortunately, the patients that were prayed for fared worse than those that were not prayed for.

When the templeton foundation got the results, their response was "well, you can't measure prayer with science." This is hilarious considering they spent a shit load of money trying to prove that exact thing in which they say can't be done!

Does prayer help some people heal themselves? Maybe, but so does positive thinking and family support. This does not mean that there is some magical sky daddy listening and only helping those that pray. It's more a product of a good mind-body relationship that fosters healing.

Here are two well executed studies that prove my point:

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL.
Source

Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA. hbenson@bidmc.harvard.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
METHODS:

Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
RESULTS:

In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
CONCLUSIONS:

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Here is the second study:

Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study.

Krucoff MW, Crater SW, Gallup D, Blankenship JC, Cuffe M, Guarneri M, Krieger RA, Kshettry VR, Morris K, Oz M, Pichard A, Sketch MH Jr, Koenig HG, Mark D, Lee KL.
Source

Duke Clinical Research Institute, Durham, NC 27705, USA. kruco001@mc.duke.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Data from a pilot study suggested that noetic therapies-healing practices that are not mediated by tangible elements-can reduce preprocedural distress and might affect outcomes in patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention. We undertook a multicentre, prospective trial of two such practices: intercessory prayer and music, imagery, and touch (MIT) therapy.
METHODS:

748 patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention or elective catheterisation in nine USA centres were assigned in a 2x2 factorial randomisation either off-site prayer by established congregations of various religions or no off-site prayer (double-blinded) and MIT therapy or none (unmasked). The primary endpoint was combined in-hospital major adverse cardiovascular events and 6-month readmission or death. Prespecified secondary endpoints were 6-month major adverse cardiovascular events, 6 month death or readmission, and 6-month mortality.
FINDINGS:

371 patients were assigned prayer and 377 no prayer; 374 were assigned MIT therapy and 374 no MIT therapy. The factorial distribution was: standard care only, 192; prayer only, 182; MIT therapy only, 185; and both prayer and MIT therapy, 189. No significant difference was found for the primary composite endpoint in any treatment comparison. Mortality at 6 months was lower with MIT therapy than with no MIT therapy (hazard ratio 0.35 (95% CI 0.15-0.82, p=0.016).
INTERPRETATION:

Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention.

Comment in

**HialeahChico305** · 11-01-2011, 09:37 AM

Plan, Plot, Strategize > prayer

**Thee_One** · 11-01-2011, 01:51 PM

You can't pray for someone to get better.

You can only pray, that they will have the insight necessary to Will themselves to be better.

**exphys88** · 11-01-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Thee_One

You can't pray for someone to get better.

You can only pray, that they will have the insight necessary to Will themselves to be better.

The majority of religious nuts would whole heartedly disagree with you. And, they make up about 90% of the U.S.-Pretty scary huh?

**Crono1000** · 11-01-2011, 03:03 PM

Yes.

**SloppyJ** · 11-01-2011, 03:19 PM

"I don't cry, I don't look up at the sky and ask why. But sometimes I feel like I'm paitently waiting to die."

**exphys88** · 11-01-2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Crono1000

Yes.

Yes that it works? Or yes that it's scary how many people believe it?

**exphys88** · 11-01-2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

"I don't cry, I don't look up at the sky and ask why. But sometimes I feel like I'm paitently waiting to die."

What is that from?

**Muscle_Girl** · 11-01-2011, 04:19 PM

The mind is a very powerful thing, it can do much more than we have ever thought it could. So, if someone believes that prayer can do good, it can make it so in their own mind. I am not religious, so I don't pray. All the power to those who do, so long as they don't use it to harm others or push their shit on those who don't have the same beliefs.

I sometimes wish I had as simple of a mind to think of things in this way, to have belief in something powerful, consume my thoughts with that instead of the bullshit that is this world.

**exphys88** · 11-01-2011, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Muscle_Girl

The mind is a very powerful thing, it can do much more than we have ever thought it could. So, if someone believes that prayer can do good, it can make it so in their own mind. I am not religious, so I don't pray. All the power to those who do, so long as they don't use it to harm others or push their shit on those who don't have the same beliefs.

I sometimes wish I had as simple of a mind to think of things in this way, to have belief in something powerful, consume my thoughts with that instead of the bullshit that is this world.

I agree that we can affect our own health with our own mind, but there is a physiological reason for that. We just haven't discovered it out yet.

It's a placebo effect, not a real one.

I'm trying to make the point that you can't pray for someone else to get better, and you can't pray to change the outcome of something. An example would be a parent praying that their kid doesn't crash his car on his drive home. This would require a supernatural being interfering in our lives, which is absurd.

**Thee_One** · 11-02-2011, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

I agree that we can affect our own health with our own mind, but there is a physiological reason for that. We just haven't discovered it out yet.

It's a placebo effect, not a real one.

I'm trying to make the point that you can't pray for someone else to get better, and you can't pray to change the outcome of something. An example would be a parent praying that their kid doesn't crash his car on his drive home. This would require a supernatural being interfering in our lives, which is absurd.

Why supernatural?

Surely you don't believe that we've "discovered" everything "natural"
in this universe/multiverse?

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Thee_One

Why supernatural?

Surely you don't believe that we've "discovered" everything "natural"
in this universe/multiverse?

No, I don't think that. Maybe you have another definition of prayer, but my definition is someone asking god (supernatural) to do something for them.

As of now, there is ZERO evidence of anything supernatural. This refers to faith healing, ghosts, demons, psychic powers, etc.

The James Randi educational foundation is an organization that will give 1 million dollars to anyone that can demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria. Not one person has passed the test!

James Randi Educational Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Curt James** · 11-02-2011, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Muscle_Girl

The mind is a very powerful thing, it can do much more than we have ever thought it could. So, if someone believes that prayer can do good, it can make it so in their own mind. I am not religious, so I don't pray. All the power to those who do, so long as they don't use it to harm others or push their shit on those who don't have the same beliefs.

I sometimes wish I had as simple of a mind to think of things in this way, to have belief in something powerful, consume my thoughts with that instead of the bullshit that is this world.

Amen.

**Eford3** · 11-02-2011, 06:44 PM

well im going to take the christian route which makes me a better person, gives me something to look to in times of struggle, relief in times of stress and worries, something to look forward to after death (when the day comes where death is going to take us i would like to think i am going to a better place). i just dont see the bad in being religious. Its like eating healthy: it makes you feel better, look better, be healthier, overall better so why not do it?
Watch something for me that might change your views, its called 'Mountain of Fire: The search for the True Mount Sinai"

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Eford3

well im going to take the christian route which makes me a better person, gives me something to look to in times of struggle, relief in times of stress and worries, something to look forward to after death (when the day comes where death is going to take us i would like to think i am going to a better place). i just dont see the bad in being religious. Its like eating healthy: it makes you feel better, look better, be healthier, overall better so why not do it?
Watch something for me that might change your views, its called 'Mountain of Fire: The search for the True Mount Sinai"

Have you ever taken a biology class? Once humans discovered that all the life on earth has evolved over millions of years, we no longer need to make up stories to explain things. For me, I can't just believe something to make me feel better, my intelligence kicks in and says "wait, there is no way that snakes can talk or man can walk on water, etc."

I could use your same argument for hindu, buddhism, muslim etc. All religions say the same bs: that they believe it so just in case it's true, they get to go to their heaven.

But, the topic at hand is the notion that we can influence our surroundings with our thoughts. Which is incredibly obvious that we can't.

There is no movie or book that is going to convince me that the sciences of biology, paleontology, zoology, geology, astronomy are a mass conspiracy that encompasses nearly all scientists in every civilized country.

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Eford3

well im going to take the christian route which makes me a better person, gives me something to look to in times of struggle, relief in times of stress and worries, something to look forward to after death (when the day comes where death is going to take us i would like to think i am going to a better place). i just dont see the bad in being religious. Its like eating healthy: it makes you feel better, look better, be healthier, overall better so why not do it?
Watch something for me that might change your views, its called 'Mountain of Fire: The search for the True Mount Sinai"

And, christians are no more happy, altruistic, giving, loving than people of other faiths, or non-faiths.

Remember, that only 30% of the world is christian, and a large majority of americans are christians and we are one of the most depressed and immoral societies around.

Not to mention, that we are far behind the rest of the civilized world in the sciences, mainly because of the attack on science by creationists.

**ANIMALHAUS** · 11-02-2011, 07:04 PM

I was born and raised catholic, but I'll be damned to call myself catholic. I don't have hate for those who believe in a religion. Good for them if it comforts them throughout their life.

I personally regret having to go through CCD, baptism, communion, etc. IMHO, the catholic church wants nothing but our money. Baskets shoved in our faces on Sunday's? The catholic church does not believe in divorce WHATSOEVER, but for a boatload of money you can have your 2nd wedding in a church after an annulment?

I'm going 6 feet underground when I die, and I know I'm staying there. I can live with that.

Like i said before, I can honestly say that I am happy for those of you faithfully believe in a religion.

**gearin up** · 11-02-2011, 07:08 PM

Prayer does help. It doesnt however help the person being prayed for, It helps the people praying to feel as though they are doing something to help when they are in reality helpless. It is therapeutic for them.

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by ANIMALHOUSE

I was born and raised catholic, but I'll be damned to call myself catholic. I don't have hate for those who believe in a religion. Good for them if it comforts them throughout their life.

I personally regret having to go through CCD, baptism, communion, etc. IMHO, the catholic church wants nothing but our money. Baskets shoved in our faces on Sunday's? The catholic church does not believe in divorce WHATSOEVER, but for a boatload of money you can have your 2nd wedding in a church after an annulment?

I'm going 6 feet underground when I die, and I know I'm staying there. I can live with that.

Like i said before, I can honestly say that I am happy for those of you faithfully believe in a religion.

Thanks for chiming in.
I am more like our founding fathers and believe that religion is poison for society (look it up), and poison for the mind.

Believing in creationism and superstition makes people stupid. We should be more skeptical when religious people make miraculous claims about gods and the afterlife without any proof.

Although in modern times christians aren't committing the atrocities like muslims do, they do have a very bloody past. And, it's all the result of faith and religion. The sept. 11 pilots were educated middle class men, they weren't crazy lunatics, they were just very religious and had incredible faith in the belief that they will be rewarded in heaven.

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by gearin up

Prayer does help. It doesnt however help the person being prayed for, It helps the people praying to feel as though they are doing something to help when they are in reality helpless. It is therapeutic for them.

correct, but this is a placebo effect, not the work of a supernatural being as religious people would suggest.
We see this happen in clinical studies where people given a placebo actually get better because they believe it will help.

**gearin up** · 11-02-2011, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

correct, but this is a placebo effect, not the work of a supernatural being as religious people would suggest.
We see this happen in clinical studies where people given a placebo actually get better because they believe it will help.

Believe me it would be nice if there were a big fluffy heavenly father waiting for all of us after death but the reality is that there is just not. What ever your religion the God of your choice is nothing more than an imaginary friend along the lines of those invented by children. It just seems more real to some because large amount of people have agreed to call it by the same name and gather together to constantly reassure one another of its existance.

**SloppyJ** · 11-02-2011, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

What is that from?

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by gearin up

Believe me it would be nice if there were a big fluffy heavenly father waiting for all of us after death but the reality is that there is just not. What ever your religion the God of your choice is nothing more than an imaginary friend along the lines of those invented by children. It just seems more real to some because large amount of people have agreed to call it by the same name and gather together to constantly reassure one another of its existance.

well put. Also, people don't really have a choice when they are raised to believe certain religious beliefs.

If we waited until the age of reason before introducing religion to kids, religion would cease to exist.

**SloppyJ** · 11-02-2011, 07:31 PM

10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

I've got some new lifting music, thanks!

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

Zeitgeist was a good documentary.

**SloppyJ** · 11-02-2011, 07:41 PM

You're in CA and you've never heard of Swollen? Damn.

Check out Hed P.E. they're from CA. Now that's some fucking lifting music. They're newest album and Only in Amerika are my favorites.

**exphys88** · 11-02-2011, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

You're in CA and you've never heard of Swollen? Damn.

Check out Hed P.E. they're from CA. Now that's some fucking lifting music. They're newest album and Only in Amerika are my favorites.

I'm old (32) and out of the loop. Plus, most of my friends are hippies and like grateful dead and shit like that.
Thanks!

**littlekev** · 11-02-2011, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Eford3

well im going to take the christian route which makes me a better person, gives me something to look to in times of struggle, relief in times of stress and worries, something to look forward to after death (when the day comes where death is going to take us i would like to think i am going to a better place). i just dont see the bad in being religious. Its like eating healthy: it makes you feel better, look better, be healthier, overall better so why not do it?
Watch something for me that might change your views, its called 'Mountain of Fire: The search for the True Mount Sinai"

Just so you know bro i am not trying to attack you for this, i just see a few things here and am speaking my thoughts,
1. why does the "Christian Route" make you a better person?
2. "Relief in times of stress, etc" that is kind of an excuse to say here take this from me, make me feel better. I personally believe that is either a way to avoid taking action, or a way to not deal with the struggles of life which when faced make you stronger!

**littlekev** · 11-02-2011, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by gearin up

Prayer does help. It doesnt however help the person being prayed for, It helps the people praying to feel as though they are doing something to help when they are in reality helpless. It is therapeutic for them.

I believe you answered the mystery by stating "feel as though they are doing something to help when they are in reality helpless." People want to believe that when they're helpless some divine being will save them, but in fact all that is doing is stoping or slowing panic.

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