Thread: Tell Congress to reject cuts to the Pell Grant program!

Originally Posted by LAM

Indian's get free higher education, China just invested 2T dollars in their education system in '09 from the ground up and the US is cutting funding from the ground up...

China’s growing army of unemployed graduates

Graduate unemployment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by TJTJ

Are you willing to throw him to the dogs and say tough shit? Or give this bright young man who's willing to learn some assistance?

It's a big leap from saying someone should do something to having the state force them to do it.

Originally Posted by troubador

It's a big leap from saying someone should do something to having the state force them to do it.

Who is forcing who to do what?

This is the country where you're supposed to be able to rise with hard work, no matter how little your family has. Now how are you supposed to do that if, even when you're working a job, university is too much for your family to pay? Is a great mind just supposed to languish? If you're smart and poor, there should be some kind of help or interest-free loan.

Originally Posted by troubador

China’s growing army of unemployed graduates

Graduate unemployment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the unemployment problem in China is not the same in the US. here jobs are being outsourced and off-shored to increase profits for large firms by reducing payroll or moving the jobs to foreign domestic markets that may even be paying equivalent wages such as Germany, Korea, etc.

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"Paradoxes in China’s job market increasingly apparent

Two recent news reports underscored paradoxes in China’s economic structure, with too few people to work in construction, manufacturing, cleaning and the restaurant sector – positions typically reserved for “migrant workers”. Meanwhile, college graduates face bleak employment prospects, even as the economy hums along at well above 8 percent GDP growth. Women graduates, in particular, are facing difficult employment prospects, and according to a high ranking official of the All-China Women’s Federation, there are five major reasons behind it:

1) The overall employment situation remains grim.

2) The labour market and industrial structure is out of whack, with the relatively underdeveloped services sector unable to provide enough jobs for female graduates and other workers.

3) The traditional social conceptions of which jobs are gender appropriate and outdated sexist prejudices still complicate matters. In this regard, gender-based discrimination is still an important factor.

4) The vocational and specialized skills available at educational institutions aren’t in line with market needs, making it difficult for China to meet the goal of transforming its economic model.

5) The power of legal regulations and supervision isn’t sufficient. For example, the laws defining what constitutes sexual discrimination in the job seeking process are vague.

While young university graduates may have it rough, the country is also experiencing a nationwide “labour famine” (用工荒) that is particularly acute in traditional export-oriented areas in Guangdong. According to a report by the Guangzhou Daily, Guangdong is short over one million workers, with the cities of Guangzhou, Dongguan, and Shenzhen needing 150,000, 200,000, and 800,000 workers, respectively. Many of the new positions that remain unfilled have a salary over 1,000 yuan per month. Employers who pay very little for entry-level positions (ie. 500-600 per month) are finding it very difficult to attract workers. Position that require grueling work are also difficult to staff.

Unsurprisingly, according to the article, employers are primarily resorting to increasing salaries in order to satisfy the workforce needs. Other areas, such as Guangzhou’s Luogang District (萝岗区) are using the “going out to attract workers” strategy – organizing trips to distant places like Gansu and Sichuan to look for workers, and enticing them through free skills training. In Yiwu, a bustling industrial city in Zhejiang, when workers want to discuss work conditions with a potential employer, “everything is on the table” to discuss. Besides providing for free food and accommodation and a base salary of 2,000 yuan, many employers in Yiwu are also offering subsidies and programs for lunches, birthdays, and free training. In some cases workers can earn up to 4,000 yuan.

According to the article, there are two main reasons for the shortage of workers. First, unlike a few years ago in which many migrants would prefer to go to the developed cities on China's eastern coast, now many migrants prefer to go to tier two cities, where they earn roughly the same salary but have higher purchasing power. One worker from Hunan told of how some of her friends prefer Nanchang to Guangzhou, where they can have roughly equal salaries but without the high costs of living in developed and expensive cities. Even places that were former labour-export areas, like Anhui, are seeing labour shortages, which underscores that the phenomenon is nationwide, and not just limited to one single area. Second, supply and demand in the economy are unbalanced. Many of the new jobs are in frontline production, but the education levels of the new labour force is increasingly high, and many do not want to work in production."

http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/100684

Originally Posted by TJTJ

Who is forcing who to do what?

You want to force people to fund your education. Where else is the money going to come from?

Originally Posted by LAM

the unemployment problem in China is not the same in the US. here jobs are being outsourced and off-shored to increase profits for large firms by reducing payroll or moving the jobs to foreign domestic markets that may even be paying equivalent wages such as Germany, Korea, etc.

Increasing the number of graduates beyond the demand of the job market only creates more unemployed graduates. It doesn't matter where the jobs went.

Originally Posted by troubador

You want to force people to fund your education. Where else is the money going to come from?

Your semantics are deceiving and/or misleading.

Originally Posted by TJTJ

Your semantics are deceiving and/or misleading.

No, it's very straightforward. It isn't voluntary funding. It's from taxes people are required to pay. Very simple.

Originally Posted by troubador

Increasing the number of graduates beyond the demand of the job market only creates more unemployed graduates. It doesn't matter where the jobs went.

the US didn't have a job problem until trade was liberalized. the population growth in the US has slowed to a crawl with the exception of immigrants, that's where most of the growth is.

Originally Posted by troubador

No, it's very straightforward. It isn't voluntary funding. It's from taxes people are required to pay. Very simple.

Please leave that discussion for another thread. You are deviating from my OP.


Thank you kind sir.

Originally Posted by LAM

the US didn't have a job problem until trade was liberalized. the population growth in the US has slowed to a crawl with the exception of immigrants, that's where most of the growth is.

So why do we need more graduates?

Originally Posted by troubador

So why do we need more graduates?

higher education isn't just about getting a better paying job, it's about a interactive learning environment where one challenges known assumptions, and examines mysterious worlds of thought, etc.

also don't forget the brain does not function at optimal levels of efficiency when it is sedentary just like pathways that are built from exercise. you either use it or lose it...

Originally Posted by troubador

So why do we need more graduates?

that question it too idiotic to answer.

Originally Posted by M4A3

And at least we will have gotten something for our money moron.

A person who served in the military has EARNED THAT MONEY.



Exactly.

Everyone else says they earned it, too. What makes you so special and entitled?

Originally Posted by LAM

higher education isn't just about getting a better paying job, it's about a interactive learning environment where one challenges known assumptions, and examines mysterious worlds of thought, etc.

also don't forget the brain does not function at optimal levels of efficiency when it is sedentary just like pathways that are built from exercise. you either use it or lose it...

I really don't think taxpayers should fork out $40K+ for students to examine mysterious worlds of thought. I think people have this idealistic vision of what college offers but what the schools are actually producing are nothing like that.

I had to fire some guys in a lab that I managed years ago because their degrees were basically worthless, that had no hard skills at all.

When I was with a health screening crew a few years ago. I had to teach this kid with a master's in some HHP related major how to take blood pressure. When we started, he asked "so when do I start counting?". He was useless but at least he broadened his horizons for thousands of taxpayer dollars.

Originally Posted by TJTJ

that question it too idiotic to answer.

Then your response is either irrelevant or contradictory.

Originally Posted by troubador

I really don't think taxpayers should fork out $40K+ for students to examine mysterious worlds of thought. I think people have this idealistic vision of what college offers but what the schools are actually producing are nothing like that.



When I was with a health screening crew a few years ago. I had to teach this kid with a master's in some HHP related major how to take blood pressure. When we started, he asked "so when do I start counting?". He was useless but at least he broadened his horizons for thousands of taxpayer dollars.

Where in the world did you get that number? Community and state colleges generally do not charge 5000 per semester. And if they do, pell is most certainly not paying that amount.

Originally Posted by troubador

I really don't think taxpayers should fork out $40K+ for students to examine mysterious worlds of thought. I think people have this idealistic vision of what college offers but what the schools are actually producing are nothing like that.

that's an analogy for gaining wisdom. the concept of higher education is basically for enlightenment, to open up the mind and to foster cognitive thinking with the end goal of mastery of a higher order of abilities. there can also be curriculum that is more skill oriented to prepare for a future career, etc.

tax payers don't fund higher education, that's why the student loan requirements were changed years ago. a small amount of tax payer monies go to pell grants, etc. but it seems like that may be on the chopping block as well.

* part of the problem is that the primary education system in the US is outdated, it's based on a education system that was designed during and for the industrial revolution and it has not been overhauled since. when wage stagnation started to stress the middle class heavily a good decade ago is loan programs were changed so that the student was no longer tied to the parental income. however this opened up the door for rapid tuition increases far above inflation rates and the beginning of the now "for profit" higher education system in the US.

Originally Posted by troubador

Then your response is either irrelevant or contradictory.

Here's my response.



...

Originally Posted by troubador

So why do we need more graduates?

Originally Posted by Gissurjon

Where in the world did you get that number? Community and state colleges generally do not charge 5000 per semester. And if they do, pell is most certainly not paying that amount.

Tuition is at the minimum 3K per semester. You've also got books and housing. The exact number is that important. Let's just say tens of thousands.

Originally Posted by LAM

tax payers don't fund higher education, that's why the student loan requirements were changed years ago. a small amount of tax payer monies go to pell grants, etc. but it seems like that may be on the chopping block as well.

Public universities are largely funded by the tax payer.

My degree is an Associates in Science, it cost around 7grand total from my community college. The average salary for my degree in my state this year is around $92,000. The small cost of investment will yield greater return.










That is if there are jobs to be had once I graduate....

Originally Posted by TJTJ

My degree is an Associates in Science, it cost around 7grand total from my community college. The average salary for my degree in my state this year is around $92,000. The small cost of investment will yield greater return.


That is if there are jobs to be had once I graduate....

$92K for an AS???? Good luck!

Anyhoo, there seems to be this stereotype nowadays that a BA or BS is an absolute neccessity and somehow paves the way to a successful future. At the same time, everyone seems to look down on trades such as plummer, electrician, welder, etc. It's as if earning a BS in Sociology is somehow better than going to a trade school to become a mechanic. Some people are just not cut out for academics, but have good skills in other areas.

A mate of mine went to AU for 4 years and never earned a degree. There's no telling how much $ his parents wasted. He eventually became a fireman/paramedic, paying for his own courses. Just think of how many more times that sort of scenario would be repeated if college was "free" for everyone.

I see a lot of kids whose parents waste thousands sending their kids to college, only to drop/repeat courses and ultimately finish in 5-6 years with a useless degree. If tax $ is going to be used, seems like it'd make sense to use it to cover trade schools as well.

Originally Posted by troubador

Public universities are largely funded by the tax payer.

your talking about operating costs. both community colleges and 4-year public receive funding from the state and local government the same as primary public schools. tuition assistance comes from the federal level in the form of federal/ private loans and grants. the US spends just about the most on education on the OECD but with only average results, very similar to overall health care rankings.

investing in human capital is essential to long term economic growth and in the recovery cycles that follow recessions in the OECD. higher educated populations recovery faster.

Originally Posted by GearsMcGilf

...If tax $ is going to be used, seems like it'd make sense to use it to cover trade schools as well.

They do. But Im not a fan of "for profit" schools. They ripped me off hard core. Their credits are nontransferable and any respectable college or university will laugh if you tried. Also if you once were awarded financial aid and completely bombed failing all your classes because you bullshitted around they wont give you a second chance. They wont give money to failures.

Originally Posted by TJTJ

They do. But Im not a fan of "for profit" schools. They ripped me off hard core. Their credits are nontransferable and any respectable college or university will laugh if you tried. Also if you once were awarded financial aid and completely bombed failing all your classes because you bullshitted around they wont give you a second chance. They wont give money to failures.

You'd definitely want to make sure the school is accredited. I'd never have considered going to a non-accredited school. As far as the financial aid, I can undrerstand not offering it to someone who already had it and bombed.