Thread: Wage Statistics for 2010

We all benefit from the resources of the rich, even if not in terms of direct monetary benefit. There are many positive externalities associated with the wealth of the rich.

Originally Posted by Matt C

We all benefit from the resources of the rich, even if not in terms of direct monetary benefit. There are many positive externalities associated with the wealth of the rich.

the positive effect of wealth is only seen in high income families.

extreme income inequality reduces human capital of a large portion of the working population and encourages rent seeking activities by elites. it also reduces the trust and effectiveness of government.

it also reduces real GDP growth, contributes to more economic bubble/burst cycles and causes slow recovery from recessions (see ILO Global Wage Reports from 2008 and 2010 and the FRB for reports).

In the OECD and especially the US and UK there is a significant influence of the household income and educational attainment of any children.

www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf


In a recent report on social justice in the OECD the US ranked #27 out of #31 countries.

http://www.sgi-network.org/pdf/SGI11...stice_OECD.pdf

The US is losing it's educational advantage over other countries as they are catching up. a large majority of the highly educated workforce in the US is with the babyboomers who will be retiring in the next couple of decades.

Education at a Glance 2011 OECD Indicators
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/7/32/48685294.pdf


"Overall, the U.S. comes out as an average performer in reading (rank 14 in OECD) and science (rank 17) but the U.S. drops below the OECD average in mathematics (rank 25). Also, there is a very wide gap between the top 10% and the bottom 10% of 15-year olds in the U.S, similar to that observed between top and bottom performing PISA countries."

PISA 2009 Results


http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/32/50/46623978.pdf

Originally Posted by Matt C

We all benefit from the resources of the rich, even if not in terms of direct monetary benefit. There are many positive externalities associated with the wealth of the rich.

Can't tell if you are joking or you really mean this.

Originally Posted by Matt C

We all benefit from the resources of the rich, even if not in terms of direct monetary benefit. There are many positive externalities associated with the wealth of the rich.

That is true, but we would benefit from alot more wealthy people versus a small number of super rich individuals. I don't hate the wealthy. I just want to see more people from the middle classes able to build wealth than what we are currently seeing. This scenario was the norm in the U.S. in the post-war era.

The idea that we will all be better off if we just keep cutting taxes for the rich doesn't work either though. If you want to stimulate the economy, 50 billion dollars in payroll tax breaks for the working class will create alot more economic activity than 50 billion in tax breaks for the super rich.

Cases in point: 500,000 dollars spent on 25 chevy malibus will create more economic activity than 500K spent on a Ferrari.

5 mil spent on 10000 maytag refrigerators will create more economic activity than 5 mil spent on a luxury yacht.

Originally Posted by banker23

The idea that we will all be better off if we just keep cutting taxes for the rich doesn't work either though. If you want to stimulate the economy, 50 billion dollars in payroll tax breaks for the working class will create alot more economic activity than 50 billion in tax breaks for the super rich.

supply-side economics has been debunked long ago, it has never created any net jobs in US economic history. ideologues with no real working knowledge of US or global economics nor the US tax code are the only ones still reciting that nonsense.

US large firms and capital holders have no place to invest excess monies that would be profitable in the US, not with historic low funds rates at the central bank, low inflation and the lowest tax rates on top earners and capital in 60 years. it's why the derivatives market was/is so hot and why FDI is more profitable for US multinationals even when paying higher tax rates in foreign country's as the US has one of the lowest effective corp tax rates in the world it's one of the reason how US large firms were able to become so large numerous and profitable as compared to other large firms in the OECD in other wealthy, industrial country's.

A relevant OP, LAM.

The average wage is very low. Look at the cost of living (COL) and fixed expenses. Then, the city and state taxes, etc.

Little if anything, left over.

The average wage is low because there's 10's of millions of deadbeat fucks in this country who aren't worth hiring in the first place.

Pretend you're an employer then walk around your local Walmart and ask yourself what percentage of the people you see would appear worthy of hiring to run some aspect of your imaginary company. What percentage of these people would you want being the public 'face' of your company?

It's not my fault as a taxpayer and as an employer 10's of millions people made stupid decisions in their life and either are useless as fuck or chose not to make themselves marketable for the better paying jobs by learning a marketable trade and/or going to trade school or college to learn such a skill set.

I could give a fuck less if the median family income is $35k (or whatever it is) because I've busted my ass to get where I'm at in life and if I can do it anyone with a dream and ambition can do it as well. Contrary to popular belief, life isn't that hard to excel in if you make more smart decisions than you make stupid decisions.

we should just take all the money everyone makes and then let the gov't hand it out evenly whether you earn a living or not......right LAM?

First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don't think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
First Collector: Many can't go there.
Second Collector: And some would rather die


and later,

Spirit of Christmas Present: So! Is your heart still unmoved towards us, then?
Ebenezer: I'm too old and beyond hope! Go and redeem some younger, more promising creature, and leave me to keep Christmas in my own way!
Spirit of Christmas Present: Mortal! We Spirits of Christmas do not live only one day of our year. We live the whole three-hundred and sixty-five. So is it true of the Child born in Bethlehem. He does not live in men's hearts one day of the year, but in all days of the year. You have chosen not to seek Him in your heart. Therefore, you will come with me and seek Him in the hearts of men of good will.

and finally:

Spirit of Christmas Present: My time with you is at an end, Ebenezer Scrooge. Will you profit from what I've shown you of the good in most men's hearts?
Ebenezer: I don't know, how can I promise!
Spirit of Christmas Present: If it's too hard a lesson for you to learn, then learn this lesson!
[opens his robe, revealing two starving children]
Ebenezer: [shocked] Spirit, are these yours?
Spirit of Christmas Present: They are Man's. This boy is Ignorance, this girl is Want. Beware them both, but most of all, beware this boy!
Ebenezer: But have they no refuge, no resource?
Spirit of Christmas Present: [quoting Scrooge] Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Merry Christmas Charles Dickens! (No it's not late; Christmas lasts through the day of epiphany, Jan. 6)

These arguments are as old as the industrial revolution...G.K Chesterton often wrote of the struggle between big business and big government referring to them as Hudge and Gudge. Their names are so similar because their effect on the human condition is also similar. Either one allowed to its extreme end spells disaster for the middle class.

Originally Posted by Big Pimpin

The average wage is low because there's 10's of millions of deadbeat fucks in this country who aren't worth hiring in the first place.

Pretend you're an employer then walk around your local Walmart and ask yourself what percentage of the people you see would appear worthy of hiring to run some aspect of your imaginary company. What percentage of these people would you want being the public 'face' of your company?

It's not my fault as a taxpayer and as an employer 10's of millions people made stupid decisions in their life and either are useless as fuck or chose not to make themselves marketable for the better paying jobs by learning a marketable trade and/or going to trade school or college to learn such a skill set.

I could give a fuck less if the median family income is $35k (or whatever it is) because I've busted my ass to get where I'm at in life and if I can do it anyone with a dream and ambition can do it as well. Contrary to popular belief, life isn't that hard to excel in if you make more smart decisions than you make stupid decisions.

^^^^^^ X Infinity

If government used 100% of the capital they use to stimulate the economy, invested in education and left economics to the free market, there would be a position for everyone in society. Being poor would be a choice.

Those who complain about getting the shaft are usually bent over and well lubed to begin with...

I've never met a lower middle class person who didn't feel they've been screwed out of entitlements. I've never met an upper middle class business person who didn't feel getting screwed was part of a valuable education which made them better...

Economics is like the weather, you cannot control it, you can only prepare for it...

Originally Posted by banker23

Merry Christmas Charles Dickens! (No it's not late; Christmas lasts through the day of epiphany, Jan. 6)

Stories are pleasant in their simplicity. However, truth is often more complex, and generally harsher.

Yes, you shouldn't be a miser, but you have to realize that you cannot forcibly make anyone better. Taking money from those that have it and throwing it at those that do not doesn't create equality. All that can be done is provide an avenue for those that choose to succeed (scholarships, supportive associations, etc.). The majority of people are where they belong.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Stories are pleasant in their simplicity. However, truth is often more complex, and generally harsher.

Yes, you shouldn't be a miser, but you have to realize that you cannot forcibly make anyone better. Taking money from those that have it and throwing it at those that do not doesn't create equality. All that can be done is provide an avenue for those that choose to succeed (scholarships, supportive associations, etc.). The majority of people are where they belong.

No truer words have been spoken unless of course you're a redistribution of wealth bed wetting liberal.

Originally Posted by Big Pimpin

No truer words have been spoken unless of course you're a redistribution of wealth bed wetting liberal.

It's an evolutionary biological fact. Every organism on the planet seeks the path of least resistance. Why expend more energy, physically or mentally, than you need to?

Those that change their station in life are those that rise above that biological programming. They're the people that have mastered themselves to take the paths of resistance to achieve more in life.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Stories are pleasant in their simplicity. However, truth is often more complex, and generally harsher.

Yes, you shouldn't be a miser, but you have to realize that you cannot forcibly make anyone better. Taking money from those that have it and throwing it at those that do not doesn't create equality. All that can be done is provide an avenue for those that choose to succeed (scholarships, supportive associations, etc.). The majority of people are where they belong.

Completely agree and in the end Scrooge is not forced to share but willingly shares with his fellow man. Important point to make. I think alot of the reason for the growing divide is that the very richest Americans are profiting from decisions that are responsible for limiting opportunity for lower class Americans. We should have a steady pipeline of Americans that are able to build wealth and contribute but that's not happening anymore.

My example would be the CEO that outsources decent-paying customer service or production jobs to India or China. It's a great business decision and the already wealthy shareholders get more wealthy from it. But those underskilled workers swell the ranks of the underclass as they look for increasingly lower and lower paying jobs.

The super-wealthy do not spend any more money in the economy as a result of their increased profits; they just reinvest in areas that disproprtionatley benefit other groups at the expense of our middle class.

This is how I see it anyways. I could be completely off base though; I gotta get myself right before I can figure out what's wrong with the world.

Originally Posted by banker23

Completely agree and in the end Scrooge is not forced to share but willingly shares with his fellow man. Important point to make. I think alot of the reason for the growing divide is that the very richest Americans are profiting from decisions that are responsible for limiting opportunity for lower class Americans. We should have a steady pipeline of Americans that are able to build wealth and contribute but that's not happening anymore.

My example would be the CEO that outsources decent-paying customer service or production jobs to India or China. It's a great business decision and the already wealthy shareholders get more wealthy from it. But those underskilled workers swell the ranks of the underclass as they look for increasingly lower and lower paying jobs.

The super-wealthy do not spend any more money as a result of their increased profits; they just reinvest in areas that disproprtionatley benefit other groups at the expense of our middle class.

This is how I see it anyways. I could be completely off base though; I gotta get myself right before I can figure out what's wrong with the world.

Your remarks are generally spot on.

In this case, you've moved into problem other than the redistribution of wealth. You're now in the territory of corporate abuse. The corporations reap all the benefits of being a US company, but use people outside the US at the cost of the American worker. When corporations do that, they should be treated as a foreign company working in the US and be taxed and regulated accordingly.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Your remarks are generally spot on.

In this case, you've moved into problem other than the redistribution of wealth. You're now in the territory of corporate abuse. The corporations reap all the benefits of being a US company, but use people outside the US at the cost of the American worker. When corporations do that, they should be treated as a foreign company working in the US and be taxed and regulated accordingly.

Corporations are people. Would you tax me more if I bought a vacation home in India that had my own staff of foreign workers?

Originally Posted by DOMS

Your remarks are generally spot on.

In this case, you've moved into problem other than the redistribution of wealth. You're now in the territory of corporate abuse. The corporations reap all the benefits of being a US company, but use people outside the US at the cost of the American worker. When corporations do that, they should be treated as a foreign company working in the US and be taxed and regulated accordingly.

I am totally against giving anyone anything unless it's truly helpless people. I don't know the answer because when things are complex like global economics every policy has unintended consequences. I just want to see decent paying jobs...lots of startup capital for new businesses used to come from people saving money with jobs with respectable incomes...which in turn led to more jobs and an open well paying position that the new business owner just vacated.

Originally Posted by hoyle21

Corporations are people. Would you tax me more if I bought a vacation home in India that had my own staff of foreign workers?

I can't figure this out. If you figure out a solution to create decent paying private sector jobs for the middle class write your congressman. Better yet run yourself.

Originally Posted by hoyle21

Corporations are people.

Corporations are NOT people. Not ever.

Put another way...

Originally Posted by DOMS

Corporations are NOT people. Not ever.

At least I found something you agree with Obama on.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Put another way...

Oh shit, I'm saving that!

Originally Posted by hoyle21

At least I found something you agree with Obama on.

Funny, considering that Obama sucks a lot of corporate cock.

Originally Posted by Big Pimpin

No truer words have been spoken unless of course you're a redistribution of wealth bed wetting liberal.

your another fucking economic retard, any tax system redistributes wealth and this system existed long before there were ever "liberals" or "conservative" as it has for thousands of years dating back to ancient egyptians.

the US ranks 25th in mathematics in the OECD and people like you are a perfect example of this and why the US is in it's current fiscal situation. people like you are to worried about labels like capitalism and socialism instead of mathematics and economics is a hard science based on that.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Funny, considering that Obama sucks a lot of corporate cock.

Rather he would or not have before, I don't know, but if any politician has a chance to get elected they certainly will all drop to their knees and take the corporate penis firmly in their mouths now.

Originally Posted by LAM

your another fucking economic retard, any tax system redistributes wealth and this system existed long before there were ever "liberals" or "conservative" as it has for thousands of years dating back to ancient egyptians.

the US ranks 25th in mathematics in the OECD and people like you are a perfect example of this and why the US is in it's current fiscal situation. people like you are to worried about labels like capitalism and socialism instead of mathematics and economics is a hard science based on that.

So do you have a solution from an economist's perspective? Why does it seem from a layman's position (like myself-prob another econo-retard as well) that the more economists that get involved the more muddled it becomes?

What would your solution be if you had dictatorial powers and could implement any idea that you have?

Do you really support "redistribution of wealth?" I would define that as taking money away from someone by force (through the tax code) and giving it to someone else. I suppose I can see this as acceptable on a limited basis to care for the truly helpless and this has been done for centuries as you state in your post; But beyond that, I don't think anyone could support that position in good conscience.

You didn't actually say you support it though in your post only that it's been done throughout history so I won't put words in your mouth. So what kind of economic policy solutions do you have to grow the private sector opportunities for a rebirth of the American middle class?

Originally Posted by hoyle21

Rather he would or not have before, I don't know, but if any politician has a chance to get elected they certainly will all drop to their knees and take the corporate penis firmly in their mouths now.

As of a year ago, every single lawyer hired into his administration was from the RIAA. These are the same lawyers that were trying to get a law passed that would put a repeat downloader in jail for 10 years.

Obama loves the corporate cock.

Originally Posted by banker23

So do you have a solution from an economist's perspective? Why does it seem from a layman's position (like myself-prob another econo-retard as well) that the more economists that get involved the more muddled it becomes?

What would your solution be if you had dictatorial powers and could implement any idea that you have?

Do you really support "redistribution of wealth?" I would define that as taking money away from someone by force (through the tax code) and giving it to someone else. I suppose I can see this as acceptable on a limited basis to care for the truly helpless and this has been done for centuries as you state in your post; But beyond that, I don't think anyone could support that position in good conscience.

You didn't actually say you support it though in your post only that it's been done throughout history so I won't put words in your mouth. So what kind of economic policy solutions do you have to grow the private sector opportunities for a rebirth of the American middle class?

Taxes by definition are taking money and giving it to someone else. Hell insurance is the same way. The young and healthy pay for the elderly and sick.