Thread: Religion - first part of "Zeitgeist": The greatest story ever told

Originally Posted by KelJu

That isn't correct. Not all religions are closed minded to science.

My comments were regarding the absurd notion of 'multiple truths'. This belief is antithetical to science. I'm not really interested in which eastern religions believe in that or not but if they do their beliefs oppose science even if they think otherwise. Sometimes it seems people's desire to believe in the mystical or spiritual is so strong they'll find anyway to do it.

Originally Posted by troubador

My comments were regarding the absurd notion of 'multiple truths'. This belief is antithetical to science. I'm not really interested in which eastern religions believe in that or not but if they do their beliefs oppose science even if they think otherwise. Sometimes it seems people's desire to believe in the mystical or spiritual is so strong they'll find anyway to do it.

What do you mean by multiple truths?

Originally Posted by KelJu

What do you mean by multiple truths?

Look at post #27.

I think he did not understand me. Engineers work with "multiple truths" all the time. We now know general relativity has supplanted Newtonian physics as the most accurate description of gravitational fields, ( until a better theory comes along of course) but let's face it, we still use newtonian physics to launch a rocket, they really don't care to go through the contortions of relativistic physics to calculate the force needed to reach escape velocity. However, we do use general relativity ( and SR) when we launch the GPS satellites. The space time continuam is such that time closer to the heavy mass ( earth) is slightly slower than time away from the heavy mass ( gps satellites.) so much so that if they did not calculate the difference between the gps satellite and earth, the gps satellites would all be off by "X "miles a day, ( this was something newtonian physics would never have taken into account) if einstein had not figured this out almost a century ago, we would probably have the experimental data from launching these gps satellites...this poses a problem for those trying to use a single truth to apply to the world around us...( which theoretical physicists are trying to do with the grand unification theory) but in the meantime, scientists and engineers are much more practical...molecular biologists really don't care that space time curvature explains the world around us, they just like to use the crystallography data ( thanks to quantum physics) for determing the shape of the D.N.A as a double helix.....

in another branch of science, quantum physics, has proven that subatomic matter exists in a probablistic wave that collapses into a singularity when the observer affects it's destiny, until then, it can exist in multiple places at the same time ( wave particle duality, quantum entanglement etc.), in fact, quantum physics allows for multiple universes. Interestingly enough, some sects of hinduism and buddism believe our world and universe are in an endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth of our universe, approximating what some quantum physicists also believe, abrahamic religions are completely deterministic, all of quantum physics goes against this visceral common sensical perception, but to rally against teaching it is to not accept plasma t.vs, ipads, silicone chips so religions ( mostly fundamental muslims and christians) go after another prey, without understanding that it has more experimental proof than gravitational theory......

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

I think he did not understand me. Engineers work with "multiple truths" all the time.

This just sounds like a misuse of the word truth. It's common for subjectivists to attempt to dilute the meaning of the 'truth' by misusing in various ways. Using Newtonian physics or general relativity does not result in multiple truths. Using different equations to calculate the area of a function may result in different values but the actual area of the function is objective.

Quantum physics does raise some questions and there certainly is multi-valued logic in math but I've yet to see this translated into anything that would support subjectivism.

"When pressed, quantum theorists usually fall back on what is known as the Copenhagen interpretation. The idea was promoted in the 1920s by Danish physicist Niels Bohr and his protégé German physicist Werner Heisenberg. In their view, we do not see quantum effects in the everyday world because the act of observation changes everything, fixing the many possibilities allowed by quantum mechanics as one. As a result, when we look, we only see one version of events, with every object firmly anchored to one position at a time.
The flaw in the Copenhagen interpretation is that it has no basis in theory—it is more like a story that scientists tell to make sense of facts that otherwise would seem nonsensical. It also suggests that the universe does not become fully real until someone observes it. Einstein found this idea abhorrent. “I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it,” he fumed in response to Bohr. Nevertheless, the Copenhagen interpretation was voted the preferred explanation of quantum weirdness by physicists at a conference in 1997." If an Electron Can Be in Two Places at Once, Why Can't You? | Subatomic Particles | DISCOVER Magazine

Even in the many worlds example, there is always an observer. At no point in your life will this ever create an issue. To the observer two valued logic will continue to work the exact same. So even if Schroedinger's cat's life really is in some third indeterminate value at some point, once you open the box it doesn't matter anyway. Of course Schroedinger used this as a reductio ad absurdum to show how QM doesn't apply to real life.

Originally Posted by troubador

Knowing what science is quickly rectifies this issue.

"Working scientists usually take for granted a set of basic assumptions that are needed to justify a scientific method: (1) that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers; (2) that this objective reality is governed by natural laws; (3) that these laws can be discovered by means of systematic observation and experimentation."

Can you imagine the Pope taking part in an open discussion with scientists and announcing that the doctrine would need to change when confronted with conflicting evidence?

As stated, the Dalai Lama actively works with science in order to achieve a better understanding of reality. Buddhist philosophy has an intimate relationship with Hinduism and both offer some extremely realistic arguments as to what it means to exist and why we are fallible in our understanding.

The teachings of Jesus also project a very Buddhist-like philosophy if you can get past the metaphors that were not meant to be taken in the literal sense. Its quite possible that Christianity was not supposed to be a monotheistic religion.

The intergity of these two individuals in the video below make up for its poor visual quality.

Originally Posted by bandaidwoman

what you express is very much in line with some eastern religious practices and philosophies, unfortunately, the abrahamic religions, which are more dogmatic don't allow for multiple truths as in eastern philosophical religions. As you must know, there is great healing power in meditation to laughing yoga, documented in peer reviewed journals, but when I bring these modalities up to my hardcore southern fundamentalists, they shirk it because they have roots in hinduism and buddism....strangely enough , some of my "christian scientists", will embrace these traditions because it doesn't involve administration of medicine........

multiple truths? you mean humanism? everyone chooses a ruth relative. That is where those philosophies are wrong and should not be embraced. Truth is truth, period, regardless of where it is found and it does NOT conradict itself, otherise truth would be hypocritical, (says one thing to one person, another to a different person)

Abrahamic religions, removing the veil (judaism and christianity) teach what NONE of the other religions of the eastern world taught, that is honoring a creator with your full heart sould and mind AND to LOVE your neighbor as you do yourself. Christianity did not but reaffirm what judaism stated in its essence.. do unto others as you would ahve them do unto u.

the eastern mysticism relgions either teach shame, (NOT guilt which means NO conscious to develop) Shame means you got caught and people know what you did, dont get caught, its not wrong, they are a shame cuture vs judaio-christian is a guilt based culture, (guulot means you consider your actions based on conscious within, not external , what people think).

the indian and others believe in reincarnation that can go forward and back. this is also why there is a caste system where the elite were reincarnated by karma to enjoy the lavish life they have and all us suckers fucked up somewhere in the past to live out lives. In some eastern cultures, they teach dont HELP your neighbor you will mess with their karma, let them SUFFER so they wont have to go thru this again! So much for spirituality of the eastern thoughts.

Spirituality has ONE truth, regardless. that truth will lead you to a spirituality that will not cause you to come back but a final judgment of wrongs so as to correct them and move beyond this plane. WHAT churches do, how and why they argue with each other (various protestant sects, and others) just shows that when imperfect men get together, they can try to corrupt a truth. It doesnt mean their source book is wrong, just that they are using things to forward an agenda. And all religions do this cuz all have imperfect people.

To let people do what they think in their own heads is right usually means darkness is mixing with light. ex. I beat the crap out of some guy cuz he looked at me wrongly. (I didnt, this is an example)... I can justify whaqt I did cuz he anted to rob me, (in my own head)... or he looked at me with gay eyes or whatever.... justifying actions dont make them spiritual and truth! The better way is what spirtuality leads us all toward.

love your neighbor as yourself. give to others, walk 2 miles with those less fortunate, embrace all as your neighbor. AND when you pray, go into your room, shu the door and pray! your spirituality is not to gain benefit from those who see u but rather it is a personal relationshuip with your maker, that means it is a pesonal journey where there is ONE truth for all but various imperfections in all of us that require fixing.

NExt, the comment about the pope. Rome ahas one of the largest space telescopes out there. Rome teaches evolution. Rome teaches that religion and science will never be at odds.... However, theories of blah blah blah is NOT science, it is guesswork. When there is unrefutable data, proven, religion should not or does not go at odds. We know there is a God and if God's hand in this universe was manifest by and thru evolution, who is to say there is no God? Only cuz you cant see the hand doesnt mean there isnt an intelligent design behind it all, if there is a universe, there is a first cause which goes beyond the universe itself and since scinece can ONLY try to understand this universe and its laws, what created it is beyond that and cant be quantified by those laws since there was NO universe in the beginning to have laws which govern it!

But ya, people have made a mess of religion, besides government, religion is the second horn of power in this world....

the bible teaches that. the spirit of antichrist in the world is the spirit of humanism without God. It is our hoping to make a perfrect world with imperfect men, to get out of our own way. we have CENTURIES of proof that can and will never happen. Man will seek to control even that which is good to twist it for their own gain. Ghandi was a disciple of Christ , he he just wasnt a christian since most had corrupted the spiritual truths ....


Truth can be found, by a seeking person, on a mountain, next to a river bank, in a cave, in your room and if you really seek it, it will find you and in the end, your truth and my truth will be joined since they are the same....

you obviously have never studied buddism, they for the most part don't have caste systems, as for the love your neighbor schtick and doing to others as you do unto yourself, buddism preached it 500 years before jesus, abrahamic religions don't have the monopoly on it. buddism doesn't limit god's sensibilities to reward only those that worship his ego, in fact, his lack of vanity ( which is to be expected from such aewsome presence) is such he doesn't need to be worshipped and loved by his creation at all. buddism doesn't go around telling people not to accept valid scientific theories, lets not confuse idealism with the reality and they don't go around for the most part saying how superior their belief system is, unlike the abrahamic religions, in fact , i agree with bill hicks, jesus was very buddist like which is why a buddist monk converted my mom to christianity, they don't buy the john 3:16 bit, as if god would be so exclusionary and they know it was written and canonized by man, not an unerring stenographer of god....


as for schrodingers cat, , it is just an intellectual excericse, . quantum concepts frequently conflict with our sense of reality, but why should the atomic world conform to our belief system? ( see how religion affects this lack of acceptance) .It describes reality as it is not what we think it should be, that is why so many people reject it, even though it has the most applications out of any field of physics! lasers would be impossible without quantum mechanics!

discovery.com/topic/applications-of-quantum-mechanics/10-real-world-applications-of-quantum-mechanics.htm




also, buddism has pretty much never waged a war in the name of it's religion, buddist kings conquor others for power, land, resources, but not over religious differences in minutae...

Jews = God
Christians =God + Jesus
Muslims= God + (jesus) + Mohammed


Mathmatically, the abrahamic religions look ridiculously alike

You would have to use interesecting venn diagrams and multivariable calculus to explain the over 500 sects of buddism

As for misusing the words, if you can comminicate with me in my native languages, ( mandarin and Malay) I may not tend to misuse your words as often.....

As for the dali lami, i love going to his lectures here at Emory...

By the way, the old testament never states there are no other gods, the ten commandment just says "you shall not worship other gods before me or shall have no gods before me". He never said hey, I'm it, there is only one god, capiche? So don't make too much fun over hindus who see the old testament god as just one of the more narcisstic and jealous manifestations of " the true one"...

as for the caste system, here is the reality for the smug westerners,http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm

I grew up with Hindus in malaysia who rose through the "caste system" from abject poverty to high intelluctual professors and businessmen, it can be abused, western religions have historically also their version of caste, the restrictions imposed on women so don't get on that high horse..and hinduism like christianity has evolved in that sense... because the caste, just like other misrepresented tenets of islam and christianity,can be abused by priests/imans/men/etc to keep their power....

Originally Posted by carmineb

NExt, the comment about the pope. Rome ahas one of the largest space telescopes out there. Rome teaches evolution. Rome teaches that religion and science will never be at odds.... However, theories of blah blah blah is NOT science, it is guesswork. When there is unrefutable data, proven, religion should not or does not go at odds. We know there is a God and if God's hand in this universe was manifest by and thru evolution, who is to say there is no God? Only cuz you cant see the hand doesnt mean there isnt an intelligent design behind it all, if there is a universe, there is a first cause which goes beyond the universe itself and since scinece can ONLY try to understand this universe and its laws, what created it is beyond that and cant be quantified by those laws since there was NO universe in the beginning to have laws which govern it!

the church jumped on the bandwagon for many things and they also have crazy deep pockets so it's not like money is an issue in the Vatican. and with the crazy molestation that has been going on in the church it's hard to believe that many of them are still buying the shit they are selling, how could they?

every single religion in world history is based on faith. there is no more or less proof that God exists than does Zeus. written words are not proof of anything. me writing 2 + 2 = 4 does not prove anything, I simply wrote it. the proof is that 2 + 2 = 4 when using a base 10 numbering system. facts are purely objective, they exist whether or not a person knows of them or believes in them, they are mind independent.

Lets be honest here, Religion is loved for one reason and one reason only.....God gets revenge on all the cunts we have to deal with in life. That and the "I am better then you" feeling Religion gives people plays into that idea as well.

That and humans are terrified of not having an afterlife....

Originally Posted by troubador

Look at post #27.

Fuck post #27! It is cryptic and intentionally worded to be complicated without actually saying anything plus quotes by mentally ill philosophers who have been dead for over 100 years.

I said leaders of Tibetan Buddhist are making a good faith effort to me open minded and embrace science even when it contradicts their own practices and beliefs. At the very least, I consider it admirable.

"Knowing what science is quickly rectifies this issue". Wtf?

Originally Posted by KelJu

Fuck post #27!

You asked what was meant by 'multiple truths', in post 27 I quote bandaidwoman where she first brought it up.

Here's the super simple version

Me: I'll take dogmatic over subjectivism any day.

BillHicksFan: I don't know how you can honestly draw that conclusion.

Me: because the scientific method assumes an objective reality shared by all rational observers.

KelJu: That isn't correct. Not all religions are closed minded to science. The Dalai Lama...

Me: I don't care. My point was subjectivism is antithetical to science.

Originally Posted by KelJu

I can conclusively say that the King James bible is bullshit just as easily as I can conclusively say that there aren't magical trolls living in my asshole that do my taxes for me if I eat a high fiver diet.

Maybe you just haven't eaten enough fiber, yet?