MJ23

very interesting info

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

ALBOB

That's a nice list but it's only a list of people and equipment. What about the chem/bio crap??? Nobody's saying Iraq can't have a military, they just can't have chem/bio/nuke weapons. Unfortunately we KNOW they do. (Except for the nukes.) Another thing that's a problem is WHY Iraq has those weapons. No, we don't KNOW if they directly supported the 9/11 bunch but we DO know they support terrorism. Terrorism that wants to kill any and all Americans. So, what do we do? We wait on the U.N. to MAYBE go in and discover all the cached chem/bio weapons or we go in and take care of business ourselves. Now I'm not a big fan of politicians but frankly, I trust us more than I trust the U.N.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Tboy

What are you talking about? They said they don't have anything like that.

I pedal... Therefore I am.

~ You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. ~

ALBOB

Oh sorry, my bad. I guess we can pull back now. A thousand pardons.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

MJ23

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

RoCk79

Well, I am all for going to war with Iraq, they are a greater danger to us right now, but I still say we should be more worried about NKorea then what we are. They are a threat as well, with terrorism? In a way, but more for possibly just taken over the world.....(maybe that is terrorism, pretty much the same thing)

Only one holding you back is yourself...It's time to let go....

.......Tebo

Max. Q

Like I've said before, it's not going to end with Iraq or when we capture Osama. We're going to take care of NK and Iran in due time.

As for being the "police" of the world? It only goes to show who really believe, deep in our hearts, of the word "Freedom". The US is the only country going "balls to wall" fighting for freedom and to ensure it is never compromised.

We will persue and eliminate those who dare disrupt the freedom we live under in the United States of America, on their turf.

Look at our history of wars, we do not invade countries to make them want freedom, we do not force them to run their countries like ours, we do not start wars because we don't like their way of life. We only fight those who come try and destroy the very freedom we have decided to live under or we answer those foreign countries who ask for our help to fight against those who try and take their freedom.

France, Germany, Mexico, etc..etc.. those who oppose the war in Iraq..they don't understand the true meaning of FREEDOM, but when their way of life is compromised or challenged by another hostile country in the "axis of evil", with a nuke bomb facing their sorry ass... who will they come to for help? Yep, the good ol' U...S...of..A.

MAX. Q
by Howard Balzer

"Roughly one minute after the space shuttle launches, it must withstand a condition of extreme force known as Max Q. Mission success demands that all systems perform at the highest level.

In life, Max Q demands the same commitment to success. It requires choosing greatness, personally as well as professionally. It depends on balance, passion and courage and the wisdom gained from adversity. It is an outcome as well as an attitude."

RoCk79

Well said MaxQ

Only one holding you back is yourself...It's time to let go....

.......Tebo

crunch

Why is it that you sput freedom this and freedom that but when these countries try to exercise their freedom not to go to war and face whatever consequences that entails you get all confused.

If you want to sell freedom to the world don't be surprised if they use that freedom to disagree with you. You still though have the freedom to be pissed off about it .

As for the USA and democracy, I find it funny that the United States loves democracy and yet when the UN wants to democratically vote on going to war they decide to screw it and go it alone. I'm not trying to pick a fight here but does anyone else here find that a bit two faced?

PS. I love America, freedom and democracy I'm just trying to be a little objective here.

Toronto Building Exchange

ALBOB

Confused? No, it's perfectly clear. We're not forcing ANYBODY to go to war....................well, except for Iraq. They other countires can stay on the side lines if they want, but just STAY there, and quit getting in the way just because they've sold their souls to the Devil.

That's a VERY good point except for one minor detial, the U.N. isn't a democracy. True, they vote, but that alone doesn't constitute a democracy. We've come to the conclusion that Iraq poses a grave threat to the United States. (No, I'm not going to argue whether that conclusion is correct or not. Let's just go with it for the sake of this one post.) So, since Iraq poses a threat to the U.S. we've decided to take care of that threat. Now, we could have already LEGALLY gone in and taken out Saddam and his Bathe party but instead, we decided to be good neighbors and go through the U.N. That tactic isn't working so it's time to go back to square one and take care of the problem ourselves. Notice I said "LEGALLY" when I talked about taking care of him ourselves, Resolution 1441 DOES give us that option. All we did was go back to the U.N. to try and get that organization to do it's job........FOR ONCE. Ain't happening so we're gonna do it ourselves. (With the help of the U.K. and a few other friends.)

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

crunch

Come on Albob you're above this 'sold their souls to the Devil' crap.


True the UN is not a 'democratic nation' but it is trying to, however ineffiectively, be a globally democratic entity, where we all vote whose ass gets kicked by whom and why. The reason why it's ineffective is that the big kid on the block doesn't want to play because they're not getting their way.

The job of the UN is NOT to agree with the US no matter what it wants. Just because you aren't getting what you want does not make the UN ineffective. (It's in my opinion ineffective for other reasons).

Toronto Building Exchange

Max. Q

What consequences? What has the US done to France, Russia or any of the other countries opposed to the war? We heard them, they exercised it, other than the jokes going around...what's the US doing to hinder their freedom on voting for an opposition to the war?

MAX. Q
by Howard Balzer

"Roughly one minute after the space shuttle launches, it must withstand a condition of extreme force known as Max Q. Mission success demands that all systems perform at the highest level.

In life, Max Q demands the same commitment to success. It requires choosing greatness, personally as well as professionally. It depends on balance, passion and courage and the wisdom gained from adversity. It is an outcome as well as an attitude."

dg806

It's not that they sold their souls............well kinda. Look at it.................every country that is against the war....Russia, China. France.........have a HUGE Financial deal at stake. They don't won't Iraq wiped out because they have too much to loose. That is all it boils down to!!!!!!!!!!

www.sbmuscle.com

crunch

Max I meant the consequences they would pay from Iraq not the US. Like Iraq actually using bio-weapons, etc. Everything the US says about Iraq COULD be true and those are the consquences they have to weigh when they decide on what to do. They however have the freedom to exercise the no war choice and take that risk.

Toronto Building Exchange

crunch

dg who do you think France trades with more the US or Iraq? They stand to loose way more in pissing off the States than Saddam.

Toronto Building Exchange

kuso

Um...........excuse me but why don`t you just shut the fuck up until you know what you are talking about!!!


Doesn`t look that way here

Tboy

This, coming from someone who's people illegally crosses the American border, daily, because his country stinks so bad. And has done absolutely nothing to benefit the world.

That's kinda like Cuba trying to come up with a resolution for us.

I pedal... Therefore I am.

~ You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. ~

crunch

Hey kuso, lets keep it civil. Max is just speaking from his heart and not really thinking it through. It's unfortunate that he has an 'us and them' mentality but telling him to shut the fuck up will only light a fire under him for all the wrong reasons.

That said, being Canadian, I know how you feel.

Toronto Building Exchange

kuso

Hmmmm point taken............though still pissed

MJ23

Crunch I see where u coming from,

But I HATE to see his DUMBASS speak for me and others in such a rude fashion

Kuso Well done...

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

Max. Q

whoa!! what the? sorry folks for causing such a commotion, wasn't my intention..

MAX. Q
by Howard Balzer

"Roughly one minute after the space shuttle launches, it must withstand a condition of extreme force known as Max Q. Mission success demands that all systems perform at the highest level.

In life, Max Q demands the same commitment to success. It requires choosing greatness, personally as well as professionally. It depends on balance, passion and courage and the wisdom gained from adversity. It is an outcome as well as an attitude."

ALBOB

I'm usually opposed to resorting to that kind of cliche but in this case I made an exception. No, I'm not above the belief, I think France, Germany and Russia are opposing this war for 100% financial reasons and that is bullshit. Their oil deals are more important to them than what that maniac can and WILL do. (Obviously showing my clairvoyance there.) So, you tell ME who's in this war "just for the oil".

I agree with the first part but completely disagree with the second part. The reason the U.N. is ineffective is that they have no balls. EVERY time they want something done they come to the U.S and say, "We need you to take care of this." Correction, every time they want something done RIGHT they say that. Every time they've tried to do something without us they've failed and we had to go in and bail them out.

Again, I agree, but in this case I'm gonna say they should be agreeing with us because we're RIGHT, not just because we're the U.S. I think that's where there's gonna be a permanent disconnect between our two opinions, I think the U.S. is completely right and just in this war and you don't. Oh well, at least we can have fun debating it for a while.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

MJ23

Thank you. It takes a big man to admit that he might of got carried away a bit


and from my side

Kuso

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

MJ23

Albob -The UN is merely nothing but a reflection of the Old League of Nation that miserably failed.

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

ALBOB

I'd have a hard time arguing with ya' there MJ. If this thing goes the way it's headed the U.N. might be headed towards the same fate as The League of Nations. I'm about 75% anti-U.N. I feel that way because I don't think they have the balls to actually DO what they're supposed to do. (No, I'm not saying they should automatically agree with everything the U.S. wants to do. Don't go there Berg or Crunch. ) The U.N. is staffed by nothing but diplomats and if that isn't a recepie for wasted time and money I don't know what is. Don't get me wrong, I think diplomacy is, and always should be, the first course of action but with a condition. The actual LEADERS of the countries should meet, face to face. Screw sending representatives, if you've got something to say have the balls to stand up and say it. I think this alone will help solve the problem of war. If world leaders had to look each other in the eye and say, "I'm getting ready to kill you" I think they'd take a different view of themselves and the world. Also, the U.N. should have teeth. Did you know they have absolutely ZERO authority to enforce the resolutions they pass? It's true, when a resolution gets passed authorizing the use of force they come to the U.S. and ask US to go do the dirty work. You'll never see U.N. COMBAT troops on any battle field. The only thing you'll see are U.N. "peace keepers" and they don't go to war. Basically they try to avert violence just by standing around with guns, thinking that will scare off all the bad guys. Sad, they end up getting themselves killed because all the bad guys know they're just sitting ducks.

OK, rant over.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Burner02