Thread: Let's debate the state of the US public school system, and ways to fix it.

Originally posted by Pianomahnn
My main point is that parents are primarily to blame. They instill from the very beginning of their children's lives the values and convictions with which the children will walk through life holding and applying to situations.

In some cases this may be true, but you cannot say the majority of parents are to blame. Not to mention as a parent I would be offended by that.

Part of the problem is money. I understand Capitalism, but it's rediculous how little we pay teachers when you consider how important their job actually is.

It sickens me when I think that the average teacher makes around $30k/year and actors make $20 million per film. LIke I said, I do understand that is Capitalism, but it just does not seem "right".

You can't blame the parents in every situation. I think the public school system needs to be held accountable to some degree in some stiuations.

Here is a situation I'm going through right now.

My 10 year old daughter is in 5th grade. Her grades are bad. some F's and D's. Myself and my wife work with her every night. But during the day at school she farts off and don't do her work. I attribute this to her imaturity. She is young for her grade. For three years now, my wife and I have tried to have her held back one grade. But the teachers care more about her self esteem than they do about educating her. This year, I've told them not to worry about her self esteem, that is a problem for the parents to deal with.

To sumerize: She makes bad grades, the teachers keep passing her. And I and my wife want her held back. We have even talked to her (daughter) about it and she agrees it would be best.

I say one of the biggest problems is that student rights have gone too far. A kid could walk up to a teacher and slap him in the face and get away with it now

I am a parent...I care and I am very involved.
I am a teacher...I care and I do whatever I can to help the kids.
Money will help solve the problem NOT solve it.
Some students are apathetic.

I do agree that some parents don't care, but most do. I do agree that many, many teachers don't care. I see that everyday. We need to get rid of the old hags because that is USUALLY the ones who don't care. Money can help but without caring parents and good teachers...it won't do shit. Most students are good, but I agree - why go to class in a good mood or show up at all when the teacher sucks and never gives you the benefit of the doubt. I think that can be addressed through parents and teachers as well. Kids in general are good and willing to learn.

Ok...my soap box. I believe the problem lies with our state and the laws. We as educators have no way to repremand or discipline. Kids are aloud to walk over you. Even worse is when 'little Johnny's" Mom or Dad come up and yell and scream and don't support you. They don't want their kids to be punished...WAKE UP PARENTS you are not doing your kids justice by not allowing them to suffer the consequences they incurred. Let them be responsible.

ok...I'll leave now

to me its widespread, from state officials, school administration,school board members. there are good parents and bad parents, there are also school teachers who care and dont care. there is useless spending of the taxpayers money as well.for instance, our high school now has a tennis program which the cost is 34,000 dollars to start up. 3 kids went out for the sport. but we let teacher go so we could have tennis. how will this change? it wont!! starting next year, there will be even more of this, fuller class rooms, and less teachers. another thing that affects this is enrollment. if taxpayers see that the school system isnt up to par, they will take their kids to a different school system[open enrollment], which in turn means less student and no need for teachers.

Originally posted by Prince
In some cases this may be true, but you cannot say the majority of parents are to blame. Not to mention as a parent I would be offended by that.

If your child doesn't do his or her own homework, it's no one's fault but your child's and your own.

I didn't say the majority of parents are to blame, I said that parents or parenting is the primary problem. There is a very significant difference between those two statements.

If not for parents these problems would not exist. Students coming high to class. Parents shouldn't have fucked up their children and paid a little more attention to what their children were doing. Students failing classes. Parents should have instilled the importance of learning and how being able to spell correctly will make life a whole lot better. Students lie, cheat, and steal from other students. The parents should've done a better job teaching their children good morals.

More to say later...must eat food.

Originally posted by buff_tat2d_chick
Kids are aloud to walk over you.

You didn't happen to have our current President as a student for an English class, did you?

It is a TEAM work ~ from parents to educators, to funding....why do we have to point fingers?

So, Pianomahn, how long have you been a parent?

Originally posted by DaMayor
So, Pianomahn, how long have you been a parent?

That is exactly what I was thinking......

Originally posted by Pianomahnn
If your child doesn't do his or her own homework, it's no one's fault but your child's and your own.

Depends on their age, elementary yes, any higher no, it's their responsibility.

I didn't say the majority of parents are to blame, I said that parents or parenting is the primary problem. There is a very significant difference between those two statements.

In some cases I agree it's bad parenting, but it would be the minorty of parents IMO, so I do not know what you mean here.

If not for parents these problems would not exist.

That is not true, as I said maybe in a small percentage of situations.

Students coming high to class. Parents shouldn't have fucked up their children and paid a little more attention to what their children were doing.

And if they're doing this behind their parents backs, thus the parents do not know about it, it's the parent's fault how?

Students failing classes. Parents should have instilled the importance of learning and how being able to spell correctly will make life a whole lot better.

So, if a kid fails a class it's because the parents did not instill the importance of learning?

Students lie, cheat, and steal from other students. The parents should've done a better job teaching their children good morals.

My child does not, and I can only hope the majority of kids do not.



Seeing as you're a kid yourself, have never been a parent and are talking out of your ass, I think you should kindly shut the fuck up!

I personally would like to see vouchers put in place. I would rather have a choice as to were my money goes, than just throw it at a broken down educational system.

Here in Louisiana, these idiots are still fighting a desegration suit. My kids can't go to a "neighborhood school" they will have to be shipped out to a schools that need to fill their black to white ratio's.

Originally posted by Prince
Seeing as you're a kid yourself, have never been a parent and are talking out of your ass, I think you should kindly shut the fuck up!

OK, three cheers for Da Prince.............

Originally posted by irontime
I say one of the biggest problems is that student rights have gone too far. A kid could walk up to a teacher and slap him in the face and get away with it now

You can thank the ACLU for that.

My mother is a HS English teacher. She says most of the problem lies with school systems themselves. Right now, she's having to deal with students that won't do their work because they never had to in prior grades. There are really bad teachers out there that can't be touched because of tenure. Secondly, some states are raising academic standards to the point where they are unrealistic and unteachable. Also, some states are forcing teachers to become statisticians rather than teachers. Another thing, it doesn't help matters any when a school or school system is recognized as being above average or superior and the teachers don't receive any recognition. My mom says a lot of teachers are leaving her system for jobs other than teaching. She also feels that teachers will be incredibly hard to find in the future.

It seems to me that someone so intent on intiating a debate would first qualify his or her credibility prior to making an attempt to open arguments.

i.e., high five to Prince.

Originally posted by DaMayor
It seems to me that someone so intent on intiating a debate would first qualify his or her credibility prior to making an attempt to open arguments.

i.e., high five to Prince.

ditto

Originally posted by Prince
Seeing as you're a kid yourself, have never been a parent and are talking out of your ass, I think you should kindly shut the fuck up!

Being on the outside allows a much clearer view of what is going on. Your basis to take most blame for this away from the parents exists because you are a parent. No shame in that. I wouldn't want to place it on myself either. I don't know your kids, Prince, so I'm not categorizing you or them anywhere. But I do know the kids of parents around me, and elsewhere, and it disgusts me.

I see parents who bitch and complain that it's the teacher's fault their students are failing. Oh, really? So it's their fault the student doesn't turn work in?!?!? Nice logic there. It was always my fault when I didn't do well in school. I tried the blame game. Accountability. Not much going on these days.

I don't know how much more I can stress that a child is the product of the parents and their parenting. I am who I am today because of what my parents did and did not do. The same goes for every other person in the public school system. A person who raises a child as a cheater, liar, and stealer did a piss poor job of parenting. There are quite a few of these type of students at the schools in this area.

In highschool these kids are hardly held accountable for their own actions. It's pathetic. Reason? The parents bitch bitch bitch and threaten lawsuit this and lawsuit that. The school districts can't afford the court costs, let alone any costs which result in the chance the suer wins. The end result is the districts being blackmaled into submission. There isn't another option, without disallowing lawsuits against school districts.

Now, to address the points regarding the people in the institution. I will not deny there are bad teachers. I've had some before. But poor teachers existed long before this current dilema. And tenure is not a the problem. Teachers can, and do, get fired while tenured. It's rare, though. Very few people want to become teachers. So it's more detrimental to remove a teacher because they're bad than to keep them on. Removing a teacher would mean having to find another one to replace them, while finding new ones to meet the needs of the growing district. It's really a no win situation.

Say, for instance, there is a company. It pays it's employees an average 40K a year, who work 80 hours per week and there are employees of varying competancies. The public demands that the bad employees be let go. But there is a problem. The bad employees still manage to produce the same volume of work as the other employees, just to a lesser degree of quality. So, there needs to be a hiring of new employees to take their place. Ah, but the new employees are alll working for a competing company which payes 75K per year for only 45 hours of work. And they're not going to leave that job.

Money diverted away from unnecessary expenditures to teacher payroll could help get better teachers into the mix. There are plenty of people capable of being wonderful teachers who won't take the chance to shine because it's not worth the effort and suffering.

To those complaining about credibility, I have parents, I see what they did, I know other people who have parents, I see what their parents did. I may not be a parent, but that doesn't mean I don't see what things can work and things don't. Prince, I'm not speaking out of my ass. I'm educated. I'm observant. And I have things to say of importance. I'll disregard your disrespectful comment to shut the fuck up and continue speaking.

Originally posted by irontime
I say one of the biggest problems is that student rights have gone too far. A kid could walk up to a teacher and slap him in the face and get away with it now

That is the gov't/states fault. If we (teachers) can discipline and have parents stand behind us (instead of yelling "that it isn't fair to little Johnny") then things could and would be better. Its hard to hold the school accountable when they have no power. Also, money can help but will not fix the problem.

Originally posted by Pianomahnn
If not for parents these problems would not exist. Students coming high to class. Parents shouldn't have fucked up their children and paid a little more attention to what their children were doing. Students failing classes. Parents should have instilled the importance of learning and how being able to spell correctly will make life a whole lot better. Students lie, cheat, and steal from other students. The parents should've done a better job teaching their children good morals.

BOY!! I can not wait for you to be a parent! You have NO clue. You are still young enough to remember what it was like to be a kid/teenager and to disregard what your parents say.

I wanna know what planet you are from because no matter how well you teach your kids, they are their own being...period. And far as watching your kids...good fucking luck! You will think very different in few years when you have to deal with a child of your own...mark my words.

I am almost anal about watching my kids and know where they are and what they are doing...they get to do far less than a lot their age...but guess what?!?!?!?!? They still fuck up...even the good ones. I have a very, very good 14 year old daughter and she got mixed up with a friend (who happens to the the daughter of a good friend of ours) and she took some pills from the girl and even took them. She gave some to friends...she is still a kid and does dumb things no matter how well we teach her and how much we talk. And let me tell you!! I talk to her about EVERYTHING...sex, drug, disease etc... so you better think before you start some debate like this.
Nothing personal to you but this burns me up.

You will find no laughing or smiling smiley here this time...it is not a joking matter.

No one raises perfect children.

I fucked up a bunch of times. But I learned lessons because I was held accountable for my actions by my parents.

You are correct in saying the children are their own being. I will not argue that. But there is much more to that. Children are a product of their surroundings. Parents who lie, cheat, and steal will most likely raise children who lie, cheat, and steal. Parents who are honest, loving, and understand the necessity of good punishment will most likely raise good children.

But a parent can and should instill certain things into their children. That is what parenting is all about. It's not about fucking someone, popping out kid, and letting that kid run wild. There are, unfortunatly, a lot of parents who do that. Those are the kids who make the schools such a bad place. Ask any teacher what they spend the most time on, and it's a few kids goofing off in class. Parents can teach their kids appropriate behavior and discepline them when they're wrong. It's not difficult to understand. Unfortunately, far too many people think taking away TV for a week is a punishment. Heh. I guess that's why the child is still a mean kid.

buff_tat2d_chick, I'm not sure I understand what burns you up. Is it the fact that I hold parents accountable for their children? Is it the fact that I'm not a parent, yet hold these certain beliefs on how things tend to work and how they don't?

I look at my parents and how they raised me and say to myself, "They did a pretty damn good job." I also look at the parents of friends of mine and say to myself, "They kind of fucked up a bit there." I see their parents actions in my friends. I see some with little respect for women because their father wasn't very respectful to his wife.

If parenting isn't a problem, then lets remove parents altogether.

The point is that each person is different. I hold all of my children very accountable. But I have 5 and 4 are easy going and do not buck the system...I have one, however, no matter WHAT I do...she does her own thing. She is not sick or retarded...just hard headed. I am doing my best with her...but she ultimately has to make the choices. I can only lay down the foundation...she has to build the house.

Originally posted by buff_tat2d_chick
I can only lay down the foundation...she has to build the house.

But not enough parents are doing even that.

Hell, many barely make it past planning.

PM,

You mentioned that you are today what you are, because of what your parents did and did not do. I comment you on giving them credit for this...or blame, whatever the case might be. lol But at what point do YOUR actions and experiences start shaping who you are? And as a result, you take some responsibility? Parents can show you the path, they cannot make you take it. And at some point in time, the child/adult is resposnsible for their choices and actions. We cannot continue to raise another generation of damn victims. Everyone seems to be a friggin' victim. WTF?????

BTW, kudos to all you teachers out there. I do however have a major issue with these sellout school board members that are puppets of the politicians and polute the cirriculum with their leftist bullshit.