Thread: Why do you believe in God ?

Well:

#1: Preservation of your own life.
#2: Getting the most bang for your buck in life

I added physically or emotinally in the last post ..
Anyway, I don´t feel good with that. That is the way I was raised.
Do you feel okay when you hurt someone physically or emotinally? I don´t.

But then you are just saying that morals and values are limited to the sum of our upbringing. I dont necessarily feel okay with hurting people, etc... but thats not a universal thing. some that were abused by their parents, etc wouldnt have that strong code developed in them from the beginning.

...and then they invented jail.

Originally posted by Eggs
Why would it matter if they were short-sighted? What exactly is this long run you are speaking of? You have 80 years here... 100 on the top side. Do you really think 60 years is all the much time that someone should care about it? Come on Mordred, I know you're old enough to know the time that you're alive is short.

HELL YES 60 years is something to care about...especially considering the idea that it is the only time that you will have in any way. The time you stay alive represents the sum total of time for your existance. Even by your own arguments self-preservation should be an extremely high priority. How can someone be acting in a truly selfish way when they are effectively sacrificing the continued existance of their self?

As to the idea of a social contract, why should a person care about society? Because society will reward them? I've seen lots of people that society has "rewarded" and I dont care to follow their footsteps.

A society is absolutely essential for an individual to maximize their productivity in any endeavor (health, wealth, happiness, etc.). Would you choose to live a life totally isolated, cut off from any form of society? You could not even approach anything resembling the prosperity of whatever your current lifestyle is. Think about it...personally I do not do any work that goes into producing my own food, water, clothing, or shelter. I pay other members of my society to do this for me. This arrangement is mutually beneficial as it allows them to use this money to secure goods and services themselves...and allows me to do a job that I enjoy and have time for recreation instead of having to worry about killing my next meal.

As a society prospers so do the bulk of individuals within that society. It is almost always in an individuals best interests for their society to be a prosperous one.

But truly, is not a rapist or a murderer fulfilling his values in doing what he does?

That would depend on whether or not the rapist or murderer realizes what they are doing is wrong. Most of them do. Those that don't are usually referred to as sociopaths.

Looking at reletavism I dont think I'd have the right to say "Thats wrong." Because who am I to determine what wrong is?Society can say "that was wrong" but it doesnt have the meaning that we associate with it, rather it takes the meaning of "we as a group dont like that and will punish you for it."

What exactly is this meaning that you refer to? I don't see how this is really any different than a theistic view of morality. That after all just takes the meaning of "God doesn't like that and will punish you for it." Does it not? All I see is that the authority has been transfered from a god to the society that actually has to operate under these values.

I find your last statement interesting though. "Some value systems are simply better than others." Now, who is the judge of that?

For lack of a better word...history. Societies with superior value systems will prosper and survive. Societies with inferior value systems will falter and cease to exist, eventually being supplanted by societies with different values.

You can die for whatever you want, that doesnt make it romantic. If your name goes down in history you either just impressed people that it was important in some way or another. It never truly was in the scheme of things.

That was directed against your claim that without a god people should only value their own existance. People can easily justify, with good reason, adhering to certain values despite their very existance being threatened because of them.

Originally posted by Eggs I grew up in a country where not too long ago cannibalism was acceptable. So tell me, because society allowed it was that okay?

So you grew up Catholic eh?

I think one thing we are forgetting here is that the largest encouragement to believe in a god is based on a rather selfish motive - a rewards system of everlasting life based on interpretation of behavioral modification as assigned. So it seems that the religious motive is actually self-centered in nature which enables some religions to believe that penance and sacrifice in earthly life leads to a greater personal reward later.

These lessons are scattered all around our religious belief system...if you give, then you will receive greater, etc., as if it is a big cosmic bribe of some kind.

Of course I agree with Mordred post.

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Originally posted by kbm8795
I think one thing we are forgetting here is that the largest encouragement to believe in a god is based on a rather selfish motive - a rewards system of everlasting life based on interpretation of behavioral modification as assigned. So it seems that the religious motive is actually self-centered in nature which enables some religions to believe that penance and sacrifice in earthly life leads to a greater personal reward later.

These lessons are scattered all around our religious belief system...if you give, then you will receive greater, etc., as if it is a big cosmic bribe of some kind.

Thanks for remembering this thought. I was looking for it.

Originally posted by Mordred
HELL YES 60 years is something to care about...especially considering the idea that it is the only time that you will have in any way. The time you stay alive represents the sum total of time for your existance. Even by your own arguments self-preservation should be an extremely high priority. How can someone be acting in a truly selfish way when they are effectively sacrificing the continued existance of their self?

I view it as a paradox kinda... I believe that realizing our ultimate position requires that value and morals demand immediete gratification in anything, because we realize that life is not long and we have no guarantees. You could spend your entire life building up your existence, only to make it to where you want to be and the next day have heart failure. In the end, living the long paced life or short life full of immediete gratification is in the hands of the beholder. Obviously this is a concern because it occurs, if it didnt there would never be any crime.

A society is absolutely essential for an individual to maximize their productivity in any endeavor (health, wealth, happiness, etc.). Would you choose to live a life totally isolated, cut off from any form of society? You could not even approach anything resembling the prosperity of whatever your current lifestyle is. Think about it...personally I do not do any work that goes into producing my own food, water, clothing, or shelter. I pay other members of my society to do this for me. This arrangement is mutually beneficial as it allows them to use this money to secure goods and services themselves...and allows me to do a job that I enjoy and have time for recreation instead of having to worry about killing my next meal.

I dont necessarily agree with that. I'd just as soon be an old warlord or dictator, neither of which is a society friendly job-description. Today I can be guaranteed to be worked until I'm 1 inch from a nervous breakdown, I can sit 2 hours in traffic each way from work, and what not. Dont get me wrong, there have also been gains made. Those gains seem to particularily please you more than they do me. I dont need a computer or electricity to find enjoyment. My life would be just as good spearfishing in the ocean and cooking on an open fire each day.

That would depend on whether or not the rapist or murderer realizes what they are doing is wrong. Most of them do. Those that don't are usually referred to as sociopaths.

Once again, wrong according to who? Society? Because their mommy and daddy told them not to? What happens if a cannibal is transplanted from another society to this one? Is that person a sociopath then? The main word I am concerned about that statement is "wrong". Thats a fluid concept when you're dealing with relativism. How about gang life? Would someone shooting somebody as part of initiation into a gang be wrong? Why would it, if they didnt beleive they were wrong? And who cares if society considers them a sociopath... thats just a fun way of saying "you dont fit in".

For lack of a better word...history. Societies with superior value systems will prosper and survive. Societies with inferior value systems will falter and cease to exist, eventually being supplanted by societies with different values.

There have been plenty of societies with great value systems that have ceased to exist... and there have been ones with inferior value systems that have prospered. Look at the human rights problems that there are in China, and yet economically they are staged to become one of the world super-powers. Well and good to say they are just using different values, but I dont necessarily see value systems playing that big a part in a societies position.

Well, I have to get back to studying.

Originally posted by Mordred
So you grew up Catholic eh?

No, but good guess

Originally posted by kbm8795
I think one thing we are forgetting here is that the largest encouragement to believe in a god is based on a rather selfish motive

The motivation for most of what we do is selfish. So within reason, belief in a God will also be selfish.

However, I think its possible to believe in a God because you believe it exists and just seeing it as being truth... and not necessarily working for everlasting rewards. Some people might go so far as to believe in Gods and acknowledge that they will cease to exist after this life.

It is a motivation certainly, but being self centered is part of human existence and is found in all we do.

Originally posted by Eggs
The motivation for most of what we do is selfish. So within reason, belief in a God will also be selfish.

However, I think its possible to believe in a God because you believe it exists and just seeing it as being truth... and not necessarily working for everlasting rewards. Some people might go so far as to believe in Gods and acknowledge that they will cease to exist after this life.

It is a motivation certainly, but being self centered is part of human existence and is found in all we do.

but how do we make ourselves feel that way?

I hate it sometimes, because i feel as if sometimes the only reason i believe in god
is because im scared of going to hell if i dont

How can we come to terms and then start loving God for God
and not just so we get what we want when we die??

Thank God that I am atheist.

You can thank yourself for that, dont hold God responsible

Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
but how do we make ourselves feel that way?

I hate it sometimes, because i feel as if sometimes the only reason i believe in god
is because im scared of going to hell if i dont

How can we come to terms and then start loving God for God
and not just so we get what we want when we die??

The only way you can ever love God just for being who he is IMO, is to love truth. Its that love of truth that will convince you that what you are doing is right, not that you are doing what you are for gain here or later.

Some people focus so much on what happens later that they forget their reasons for now. The future is all and good, but the present needs to be paid some mind too

Eggs, don´t be so boiled.

Tsk, back down your rabbit hole

hobbit hole for you

I´m 6´2´´ or 6´3´´.

Im sean
nice to meet you
6'2" or 6'3"

I am so special that I have my own bar code.

I'm 5'9", I'll take that hobbit hole!

^ shortie

Yeah yeah, I'm quite happy at my height