Damn this is bad.

irontime · 05-10-2004, 11:31 AM

I watched the CBS report on the abuse of the prisoners and damn that was pretty shocking. Going through the photo's are even more disturbing.
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml

Now I don't intend this to be a flame to the Americans, as I'm sure that they are as shocked about it as the rest of the world. But when I heard the secretary of defence state that he was upset that the photo's got out to the public it made me wonder if this is a common occurance.

Could this have happened many times before but we just never got the photo's?

Just wondering what different people's perspectives are.

And let's try to keep this thread civil please.

Stickboy · 05-10-2004, 11:36 AM

This type of stuff is NOT standard operating procedure.

What happened in those prisions is a black eye to America, and the US military in particular.

**Dale Mabry** · 05-10-2004, 11:43 AM

I doubt this is an isolated incident, but I would not say it is common.

I don't know what to say, but it is obviously a few dumbass individuals clowning around, not a systemic issue. They deserve whatever happens to them, but I will guarantee they will say higher ups told them to do it. Regardless, I am sure it doesn't help our case out in the Arab world.

ALBOB · 05-10-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irontime Could this have happened many times before but we just never got the photo's?

It happens all the time and we DO get the photos. In Mogadishu the bodies of our dead soldiers were dragged, naked, through the streets as citizens danced in celebration. During Gulf war #1 the Iraqi's paraded our wounded POW's all over the news. During recent uprisings in Kabul and Najaf the bodies of our dead soldiers and civilians were dragged through the streets and hanged from telephone polls. All recent American POW's have been forced to read pre-printed "statements" by their Iraqi captors on Islamic T.V. Starting to get the picture? So, where's all the outrage when it's OUR people being mistreated?

Now that I have that off my chest, I agree, this should have NEVER happened. It's NOT what our country stands for and it's NOT why we are in Iraq. There's absolutely no excuse for this type of bahavior. I don't give a flying fuq what our enemies think about us. They'll hate us no matter what we do. I feel sorry for our friends. This not only makes us look bad, it makes those who have stood by us during this entire ordeal look bad. If we thought we had a rough time establishing a coalition to get rid of Saddam, think of how hard it's going to be the next time we ask the world for some support. It's gonna be a mess.

**dg806** · 05-10-2004, 12:20 PM

Think about it.......................where do you think the pictures came from?? The US government. They were investigating this long before the liberal media were given the pics. So if we wanted to, the public would have never seen them.

Pepper · 05-10-2004, 12:28 PM

Albob hit the nail right on the head.

irontime · 05-10-2004, 02:19 PM

^ I agree, very good post pops.

It's just that I had a thought (probably a very stupid one);

I was always wondering why so many countries hated the States with all the help that they give out to the world, and I was thinking that if this was common occurence then I could see why.

Now personally I don't want to think that this is common occurence and I agree with Albob

Quote:

It's NOT what our country stands for and it's NOT why we are in Iraq. There's absolutely no excuse for this type of bahavior.

Again, not trying to create shit, just had a thought and was wondering if anyone else had the same notion.

Akateros · 05-10-2004, 02:23 PM

This is what soldiers have done since the first six people got together with six stone axes to kill other people.

The technology's evolved, the people haven't. I don't know why everyone's so shocked. It's a terrible thing, but not terribly startling. War is disgusting, and its whole nature and culture makes humans into monsters. Well. Read your history, folks. Surprise, surprise.

irontime · 05-10-2004, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akateros
This is what soldiers have done since the first six people got together with six stone axes to kill other people.

The technology's evolved, the people haven't. I don't know why everyone's so shocked. It's a terrible thing, but not terribly startling. War is disgusting, and its whole nature and culture makes humans into monsters. Well. Read your history, folks. Surprise, surprise.

Believe me, I'm well read in history, but I was still shocked because I was really under the impression that the troops going in there would be putting a stop to stuff like that. Not joining in.

maniclion · 05-10-2004, 02:35 PM

I just don't understand this "civilized" war crap. If given a chance these tortured men would grab a gun from one of those guards and kill them.

irontime · 05-10-2004, 02:37 PM

^After having a broom stick shoved up my ass I would probably do the same.

maniclion · 05-10-2004, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irontime
^After having a broom stick shoved up my ass I would probably do the same.

Even if our troops had treated them like royalty they would not think twice to run a shank up any Americans asshole themselves.

**Dale Mabry** · 05-10-2004, 03:12 PM

That's not the point. When you are trying to look like the good guys you are not suppsed to stopp to their level, which is what happened.

Akateros · 05-10-2004, 04:51 PM

It has nothing to do with whatever is being claimed as the purpose by the ruling bodies back home.

An army is, essentially, a mob you can aim. And mobs have their own rules of psychology.

Sean0621 · 05-10-2004, 05:10 PM

This whole thing is a terrible setback and it is a huge black eye on the US Army. You couldn't pay me a million dollas to wear one of their uniforms right now. I have to go back over there in a short period, and I can't say it could make them hate us any more than they already do, I mean in the short run I can't see this effecting combat that much, but in the long run this will hurt us, cuz they really only get to hear the negative news over there, they don't get to hear what our mission is, the more negative news that we create the more we are hurt by it, I'm dusgusted by the soldiers that did this, but I'm even more disgusted by the media blowing this up like they do everything that goes wrong over there. Believe me there is alot more going right there than there is going wrong, but the rest of the world could never know that because the media doesn't care. I hate the US media more than I ever hated anybody from Iraq, they are the true enemy as far as I'm concerned.

BUSTINOUT · 05-10-2004, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irontime
^ I agree, very good post pops.

It's just that I had a thought (probably a very stupid one);

I was always wondering why so many countries hated the States with all the help that they give out to the world, and I was thinking that if this was common occurence then I could see why.

If this was common, you would have to be in the worse drunken stupor known to mankind not to know about it. Of course, it will give the world another reason to hate us...until they need us that is.

ALBOB nailed it though. This is sad and pathetic.

BUSTINOUT · 05-10-2004, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irontime
Believe me, I'm well read in history, but I was still shocked because I was really under the impression that the troops going in there would be putting a stop to stuff like that. Not joining in.

You give people too much credit. lol There is ALWAYS a few dumbasses in every crowd that makes everyone look bad.

kbm8795 · 05-10-2004, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean0621
This whole thing is a terrible setback and it is a huge black eye on the US Army. You couldn't pay me a million dollas to wear one of their uniforms right now. I have to go back over there in a short period, and I can't say it could make them hate us any more than they already do, I mean in the short run I can't see this effecting combat that much, but in the long run this will hurt us, cuz they really only get to hear the negative news over there, they don't get to hear what our mission is, the more negative news that we create the more we are hurt by it, I'm dusgusted by the soldiers that did this, but I'm even more disgusted by the media blowing this up like they do everything that goes wrong over there. Believe me there is alot more going right there than there is going wrong, but the rest of the world could never know that because the media doesn't care. I hate the US media more than I ever hated anybody from Iraq, they are the true enemy as far as I'm concerned.

I think I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I've seen several media specials that focused on the schools being built and the assistance given to people in many of the villages over there by our military personnel. It's the media's job in a free society to report the news, especially news involving our whole nation in an operation. Unfortunately, what often qualifies as "news" are things that happen out of the ordinary, like murders, disasters and things like that.

There are some good things I've been learning by reading accounts about this situation. For one thing, we don't know yet how responsible those personnel in the pictures are for their actions - we know they shouldn't have been doing it, but there has been speculation about lack of training, lack of familiarity with international regulations, and we've learned that our military personnel were greatly undermanned at this prison. There are also some issues about the role of private security contractors who have been hired for things like interrogation - and since they aren't covered under military regulations of conduct, we don't know what role they might have had in how these incidents were created. I didn't realize that there are some 20,000 contracted personnel operating in a variety of duties in Iraq - twice the number of soldiers that the British have deployed there. And it appears they don't always have any direct military commander to report or answer to - so there's another issue that is starting to see some light.

I don't think the American people feel any less supportive of our troops over there because of this at all - we understand those pictures aren't characteristic of the methods we employ in handling prisoners. What matters first is that we find where the level of authority broke down or somehow slipped into the wrong hands.

I'm not sure how we can repair our image - we let the Red Cross/Red Crescent visit, they filed complaints about treatment almost a year ago. We'll continue to let the Red Cross/Red Crescent visit - and maybe address any problems a lot more quickly in the future. I'll actually agree with ALBOB here too - we didn't drag those prisoners bleeding around the main square behind a Humvee - we didn't do Saddam-like things such as cut off a hand or disfigure someone. And Iraqis are all too familiar with relatives who disappeared under Saddam's rule and the kind of torture he employed. We shouldn't have humiliated any of them - but then, we don't even know who they are or how they behaved or why they were arrested and sent there, do we? Or what we were trying to get out of them in interrogation? I guess I'm saying there's a lot of pieces to this puzzle still missing.

I gather the Brits are weathering the same kind of reports, too.

OceanDude · 05-10-2004, 08:23 PM

You all have it wrongly. What really makes us look bad is that we killed so many of the enemy and completely took over a country so quickly and lost so few of our own. People do not hate us - they are afraid of our power and ability to do the same anywhere we want to. No one is comfortable having a “friend” that could some day decide that they didn’t like your foreign policies and not be able to stop us from doing the same to them. This is more about fear than it is hatred and it is a common human trait. The same people crying foul are the same people that would demand we come to their aid in their own conflicts. The world wants to hold the US to a super elevated standard and cry human rights abuse anytime they think they can give us a black eye to make themselves feel relevant.

That said, what was done to the prisoners is absolutely criminal. I say that the guilty persons (especially that goofy woman that was in the photos) should be publicly humiliated by a congressional hearing and put in prison for all the days of their life or forced to serve the Iraqis in some civil capacity. I say this not because these kinds of things have never before happened but because we need to set an example. When idiots do something this blatantly stupid (and get caught) they should pay the highest possible price we can. Let’s just do the only thing we can - scapegoat them and move forward.

After that, the next step forward is to completely burn Faluja to the ground after giving them 48 hours to abandon the city.

War is hell – why pretend that it is not?

OD

Akateros · 05-11-2004, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kbm8795
For one thing, we don't know yet how responsible those personnel in the pictures are for their actions - we know they shouldn't have been doing it, but there has been speculation about lack of training, lack of familiarity with international regulations....

How responsible they are? Lack of familiarity with international regulations?

Excuse me, but that was my point.

I would bet that none of these people would do anything like that, as individuals, were they home, living in their home suburb, to another human being. All their neighbours and friends are no doubt shocked, shocked and appalled, I tell you.

That is what war, and the "warlike" mentality, tends to do. It depersonalizes all participants, both the victors and the victims.

The only news here is that these days we, the non-depersonalized, non-combatant individuals living at home, have virtually real-time access to this state of mental imbalance.

kbm8795 · 05-11-2004, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akateros
How responsible they are? Lack of familiarity with international regulations?

Excuse me, but that was my point.

I would bet that none of these people would do anything like that, as individuals, were they home, living in their home suburb, to another human being. All their neighbours and friends are no doubt shocked, shocked and appalled, I tell you.

That is what war, and the "warlike" mentality, tends to do. It depersonalizes all participants, both the victors and the victims.

The only news here is that these days we, the non-depersonalized, non-combatant individuals living at home, have virtually real-time access to this state of mental imbalance.

I agree that it is entirely possible that their actions are caused by what you term the "warlike mentality." At the same time, at least one of the accused had previously asked his C.O. for guidance about treatment, since he said he was alarmed at some of the conditions in the cells. In the end, he claims that he had to look up information on the Geneva Convention by going online instead of having his concerns addressed by his superiors.

I don't know these people, or how they might behave at home. We know their families are shocked and contend this isn't typical behavior. At the same time, we've had our own individual crimes in this country (dragging a Black man behind a truck in Texas, beating and tying Matthew Shepard to a fence in Wyoming) that weren't related to any kind of war and in which families contended the perpetrator's behavior wasn't typical. So we know those personalities exist, and, like you say, are probably emphasized more in a war situation. The question I was raising was over how much influence did contractors assigned to interrogation procedures have at this prison, and why is it that those in charge didn't seem to have any discussion of prisoner treatment with a group of reservists assigned as guards?

**Dale Mabry** · 05-11-2004, 09:23 AM

I would not behave like this at a time of war. I mane, I would pants a friend in front of a bunch of hot girls, but there is a time and place for that tomfoolery.

irontime · 05-11-2004, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BUSTINOUT
If this was common, you would have to be in the worse drunken stupor known to mankind not to know about it.

Of it could have just been kept quiet.

I was thinking it may have been a possibilty as Rumsfled claimed that whoever let these photo's out to the public broke the law.

So why is there a law against showing the public what happens in other countries when it is purtaining to military actions?

ALBOB · 05-11-2004, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
You all have it wrongly. What really makes us look bad is that we killed so many of the enemy and completely took over a country so quickly and lost so few of our own. People do not hate us - they are afraid of our power and ability to do the same anywhere we want to. No one is comfortable having a “friend” that could some day decide that they didn’t like your foreign policies and not be able to stop us from doing the same to them. This is more about fear than it is hatred and it is a common human trait. The same people crying foul are the same people that would demand we come to their aid in their own conflicts. The world wants to hold the US to a super elevated standard and cry human rights abuse anytime they think they can give us a black eye to make themselves feel relevant.

That's an excellent point.

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
That said, what was done to the prisoners is absolutely criminal. I say that the guilty persons (especially that goofy woman that was in the photos) should be publicly humiliated by a congressional hearing and put in prison for all the days of their life or forced to serve the Iraqis in some civil capacity. I say this not because these kinds of things have never before happened but because we need to set an example. When idiots do something this blatantly stupid (and get caught) they should pay the highest possible price we can. Let’s just do the only thing we can - scapegoat them and move forward.

Are you being facetious or are you being serious? (Or maybe a little of both?) I agree that the soldiers did something terrible to our image but, to lock them up for life? Isn't that a bit harsh considering they didn't do any physical damage to the "victims"?

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
After that, the next step forward is to completely burn Faluja to the ground after giving them 48 hours to abandon the city.

War is hell – why pretend that it is not?

OD

I'll supply the matches.

ALBOB · 05-11-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irontime
So why is there a law against showing the public what happens in other countries when it is purtaining to military actions?

If this incident was still under investigation, which I think it is/was, it is against the law to leak any information pertaining to an on-going investigation.

Stickboy · 05-11-2004, 11:39 AM

I downloaded the investigation report (.pdf file) off fox news (.com) this mo

05-10-2004, 11:31 AM	#1
irontime The Original Jackass Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: If not here, then on some porn site. Posts: 5,101 Photos: 1	Damn this is bad. I watched the CBS report on the abuse of the prisoners and damn that was pretty shocking. Going through the photo's are even more disturbing. http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml Now I don't intend this to be a flame to the Americans, as I'm sure that they are as shocked about it as the rest of the world. But when I heard the secretary of defence state that he was upset that the photo's got out to the public it made me wonder if this is a common occurance. Could this have happened many times before but we just never got the photo's? Just wondering what different people's perspectives are. And let's try to keep this thread civil please.
	If god were suddenly condemned to live the life which he has inflicted on man, he would kill himself. - Alexander Dumas (1802 - 1870)

05-10-2004, 11:43 AM	#3
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,844 Photos: 10	I doubt this is an isolated incident, but I would not say it is common. I don't know what to say, but it is obviously a few dumbass individuals clowning around, not a systemic issue. They deserve whatever happens to them, but I will guarantee they will say higher ups told them to do it. Regardless, I am sure it doesn't help our case out in the Arab world.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

05-10-2004, 12:20 PM	#5
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,270	Think about it.......................where do you think the pictures came from?? The US government. They were investigating this long before the liberal media were given the pics. So if we wanted to, the public would have never seen them.
	www.sbmuscle.com

05-10-2004, 02:37 PM	#11
irontime The Original Jackass Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: If not here, then on some porn site. Posts: 5,101 Photos: 1	^After having a broom stick shoved up my ass I would probably do the same.
	If god were suddenly condemned to live the life which he has inflicted on man, he would kill himself. - Alexander Dumas (1802 - 1870)

05-10-2004, 03:12 PM	#13
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,844 Photos: 10	That's not the point. When you are trying to look like the good guys you are not suppsed to stopp to their level, which is what happened.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

05-10-2004, 11:36 AM	#2
Stickboy Rebel without a clue Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NM Posts: 1,115	This type of stuff is NOT standard operating procedure. What happened in those prisions is a black eye to America, and the US military in particular.

05-10-2004, 12:28 PM	#6
Pepper Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,539	Albob hit the nail right on the head.

05-10-2004, 02:23 PM	#8
Akateros I read it someplace. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 481	This is what soldiers have done since the first six people got together with six stone axes to kill other people. The technology's evolved, the people haven't. I don't know why everyone's so shocked. It's a terrible thing, but not terribly startling. War is disgusting, and its whole nature and culture makes humans into monsters. Well. Read your history, folks. Surprise, surprise.

05-10-2004, 02:35 PM	#10
maniclion Catalyst Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hawaii, selling munitions for the war on EcoTerror Posts: 17,908 Photos: 10	I just don't understand this "civilized" war crap. If given a chance these tortured men would grab a gun from one of those guards and kill them.

05-10-2004, 04:51 PM	#14
Akateros I read it someplace. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 481	It has nothing to do with whatever is being claimed as the purpose by the ruling bodies back home. An army is, essentially, a mob you can aim. And mobs have their own rules of psychology.

05-10-2004, 05:10 PM	#15
Sean0621 Full Contact Golf Player Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 410	This whole thing is a terrible setback and it is a huge black eye on the US Army. You couldn't pay me a million dollas to wear one of their uniforms right now. I have to go back over there in a short period, and I can't say it could make them hate us any more than they already do, I mean in the short run I can't see this effecting combat that much, but in the long run this will hurt us, cuz they really only get to hear the negative news over there, they don't get to hear what our mission is, the more negative news that we create the more we are hurt by it, I'm dusgusted by the soldiers that did this, but I'm even more disgusted by the media blowing this up like they do everything that goes wrong over there. Believe me there is alot more going right there than there is going wrong, but the rest of the world could never know that because the media doesn't care. I hate the US media more than I ever hated anybody from Iraq, they are the true enemy as far as I'm concerned.
	"The First Rule of Fight Club is, You do not talk about Fight Club."

05-10-2004, 08:23 PM	#19
OceanDude Well Read Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cape Canaveral, FL Posts: 1,853	You all have it wrongly. What really makes us look bad is that we killed so many of the enemy and completely took over a country so quickly and lost so few of our own. People do not hate us - they are afraid of our power and ability to do the same anywhere we want to. No one is comfortable having a “friend” that could some day decide that they didn’t like your foreign policies and not be able to stop us from doing the same to them. This is more about fear than it is hatred and it is a common human trait. The same people crying foul are the same people that would demand we come to their aid in their own conflicts. The world wants to hold the US to a super elevated standard and cry human rights abuse anytime they think they can give us a black eye to make themselves feel relevant. That said, what was done to the prisoners is absolutely criminal. I say that the guilty persons (especially that goofy woman that was in the photos) should be publicly humiliated by a congressional hearing and put in prison for all the days of their life or forced to serve the Iraqis in some civil capacity. I say this not because these kinds of things have never before happened but because we need to set an example. When idiots do something this blatantly stupid (and get caught) they should pay the highest possible price we can. Let’s just do the only thing we can - scapegoat them and move forward. After that, the next step forward is to completely burn Faluja to the ground after giving them 48 hours to abandon the city. War is hell – why pretend that it is not? OD
	"Doc, If I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself..." Est unusquisque faber ipsae suae fortunae. We Americans scoff at the likes of African witch doctors yet spend 100's of millions of dollars on fake reducing systems. The only regular exercise he gets is stretching the truth. His intellect is not replenished, he is only an animal, only sensible in the duller parts...

05-11-2004, 09:23 AM	#22
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,844 Photos: 10	I would not behave like this at a time of war. I mane, I would pants a friend in front of a bunch of hot girls, but there is a time and place for that tomfoolery.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

05-11-2004, 11:39 AM	#26
Stickboy Rebel without a clue Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NM Posts: 1,115	I downloaded the investigation report (.pdf file) off fox news (.com) this mo