Thread: pres. Bush; AWOL or Deserted? or neither?

I've never heard of this!

The only "news" here is that this is another stupid Bush-bashing thread. Why isn't one of your choices "Volunteered to serve in the Air National Guard and successfully completed rigorous and dangerous training as a fighter pilot. Completed duty obligation and received an honorable discharge"

ok, so did he " volunteer to serve in the air national guard and successful complete a rigorous and dangerous training sessions to become a fighter pilot? and " did he complete his duty obligation for which he received an honorable discharge?"

stupid Bush news on how / if he got out of active duty

so now, if he did get out of active duty, then how did HE do it as very few others managed to do the same thing. most had to go to war and a few of them died.

what the hell do i know anyway; i am just a dumb shill

i really don't care one way or the other. if a person did manage to get out of duty, and survived, then that is pretty smart i'd say. however, just as in everything, it is the lies that come afterwards, and how a person explains him or herself that becomes the issue. do you own up to it immediately, do you pull a clinton and tell the truth... eventually, when nothing else is left or do you say that you are a complete idiot, go for the stupidity route rather than admit culpability.

Its always interesting to see how rich white folks always seem to be able to get their sons and daughters out of trouble whereas minorities and lessers shoulder much of the burden.

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)



this seems to be a direct quote from some guy's autobiography.

Original thread *cough*, too bad it's so damn biased.

You don't like Bush, eh?

Bush dodged the draft by being in the reserves. May have been AWOL.

Cheney said the "military was not a prioirty in the 1960s," and never joined.

Wolfawitz, ditto.

Gingrich dodged by staying in College.

Pat Buchanan dodged by having a "bad knee,"

Rush Limbaugh dodged by having "anal cysts."

Chickenhawks.

Originally posted by Stickboy
Original thread *cough*, too bad it's so damn biased.

You don't like Bush, eh?

i appreciate the use of eh?


as for not liking bush; i actually like Doonesbury and I noticed that he had a rather hefty finder's fee for anyone with info as to BUsh's whereabouts for a period of 2 years.

This is not Anti Bush- it is always interesting how a person who questions the establishment for answers is always seen by other people as being anti - "fill in whatever words suits your purposes'.

For a while there, if you didn't buy Chevrolet cars, it was anti-american. if you didn't go out to restaurants, al-qaeda wins.

Probably back in the 60- 70's mcNamara thought that the dissenters were anti-american. especially buddy who immolated himself on the wall outside his office window.

I am sure Richard Nixon thought likewise of Bernstein and Woodward. I am sure that Clinton that that .... well,, just about everyone in the entire US of A was anti-american for having the guts to ask him what he was doing.

maybe Reagan thought the same thing of his dilemma during the Iran Contra affair.

LBJ certainly thought that during his great society term in office of those people opposed to his policies regarding Vietnam.

it ain't a matter of having guts or balls. and it certainly aint a matter of like or dislike- the corner stone of the government in NA is owning up to own's actions; not hiding behind some disclaimer, not saying that someone else made me do it, not threatening the people for whom you serve with force, not denying the facts.

had he just said " hell, i didn't want to die so i had help in getting out of it!" most people would have said ' well alright. good job".

i didn't hear much about this until recently so i asked the question.

it certainly seems to have struck a nerve with a few pro Busher's on the board.

This is a man that denounced his military service.

This was a man who had an alliance with the treason queen herself who was famous for befriending the enemy.

This is a man who was the head of the antiwar movement.

This is a man who not only called for, but embraced the idea of men to dodge the draft and move to Canada.

This is a man who called for men to turn their back on their country.

This is a man that is despised by the veterans of foreign wars organization.

This is a man who may become our president.

We do not need this man as our President.

Just a bunch of liberal BS as usual. They are only hurting themselves so keep it up!

I am not a liberal and I think Bush is a disgrace to the military.

The draft dodging chickenhawk that put on a pilot suit during the aircraft carrier charade was an insult to all veterans.

Originally posted by craig777
This is a man that denounced his military service.

This was a man who had an alliance with the treason queen herself who was famous for befriending the enemy.

This is a man who was the head of the antiwar movement.

This is a man who not only called for, but embraced the idea of men to dodge the draft and move to Canada.

This is a man who called for men to turn their back on their country.

This is a man that is despised by the veterans of foreign wars organization.

This is a man who may become our president.

We do not need this man as our President.

This is a man that actually fought in a war...

This is a man who did not avoid fighting...

This is a man judged by his superiors to have completed his military obligation...

This is a man who has AT LEAST one more kill in Vietnam than GW because GW never fought...

The point is you cand do this either way, both have spots on their record and in the end, it's going to be trivial at best


Actually, I would have done the same exact thing as Bush and bet most would have if given the opportunity. Only problem is I would never run for president and be responsible for sending people to die when I wouldn't do the same.

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
The point is you can do this either way, both have spots on their record and in the end, it's going to be trivial at best

I agree, that is what I was pointing out

I thnk if Bush wants to attack anything he should attack kerry's hairstyle in that pic.

I was born in 1967 so can't speak for the news and events during the Vietnam war. But I'd like to make a few point anyway. Some many have been addressed in this thread and other not.

1. There are many reserve units serving active duty today in Iraq and Afganistan. National Guard units were sent over to Vietnam during the war. Bush had just as much chance of going as any other male waiting to be drafted. If his unit didn't get activated it wasn't his fault.

2. Its bad logic saying that a current president can't send the military to fight if he didn't serve. If you want that, then add a constitutional admendment with that as a new requirement to be president. Its sort of like saying that a surgeon can not operate on a patient until he has undergone surgery himself.

3. The Vet war was over 30 years ago. Bush, Kerry, Clinton, Gore, McCain were young college age kids, all rich (except Clinton) to one degree or another. I am more concerned about what they've done in the last 5 or 10 years as to 30 years ago.

4. Whether or not Bush got special treatment because of his father/family money doesn't change the fact that his official military records indicate that he recieved an honorable discharge. Meaning he met his obligations. Thus, officially, he wasn't AWOL and didn't desert.

5. Answer this question. Who would OBL and the other Islamic terrorists rather win the presidential election? Then vote for the other guy.

6. Vietnam facts found at http://www.vietnam-war.info/. Draw your own conclusions.
a) 58,178 Americans were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served.
b) Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.
c) Non-hostile deaths: 10,800
d) Hostile deaths: 47,378
e) 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era (Aug.5, 1964-May 7, 1975).
f) 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1, 1965 – March 28, 1973)
g) Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 (April 30, 1969)
h) National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died
i) Total draftees (1965-1973): 1,728,344
j) 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races.
k) Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers.

Originally posted by LazyByNature

1. There are many reserve units serving active duty today in Iraq and Afganistan. National Guard units were sent over to Vietnam during the war. Bush had just as much chance of going as any other male waiting to be drafted. If his unit didn't get activated it wasn't his fault.

2. Its bad logic saying that a current president can't send the military to fight if he didn't serve. If you want that, then add a constitutional admendment with that as a new requirement to be president. Its sort of like saying that a surgeon can not operate on a patient until he has undergone surgery himself.

1)He could have had a good idea which ones where for domestic use and which ones were going overseas.

2)It's not whether or not he served, it's whether or not he DODGED service. CLinton definitely dodged service so i would not want him deciding if I should go to war. Time will tell if GW did.

BTW-What are you genetically predetermined to do, be lazy? If so than me thinks we have alot in common.

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
Actually, I would have done the same exact thing as Bush and bet most would have if given the opportunity. Only problem is I would never run for president and be responsible for sending people to die when I wouldn't do the same.

i would have done the same as well.

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
1)He could have had a good idea which ones where for domestic use and which ones were going overseas.

2)It's not whether or not he served, it's whether or not he DODGED service. CLinton definitely dodged service so i would not want him deciding if I should go to war. Time will tell if GW did.

POint 2- Moreover, it is more than whether he dodged, it is whether he owned up to it. it's the lie, the denial and then the inevitable defensive posturing that leaves a bad impression. Not everyone can be shot out of an airplane, crash in the ocean, survive the crash and then be a war hero.

I didn't realize that a person could pick and choose which unit you'd be in( Dales' point 1)

Originally posted by Stickboy
Original thread *cough*, too bad it's so damn biased.

You don't like Bush, eh?

i think that you were supposed to put another cough in front of the "orginal thread" comment. just trying to help

Originally posted by LazyByNature j) 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races.

Of all enlisted men who died in V'nam, blacks made up 14.1% of the total. This came at a time when they made up 11.0% of the young male population nationwide. If we add officer casualties to enlisted then the black percentage is reduced to 12.5% of all casualties.

"Of the 7262 blacks who died, 6, 955 or 96% were Army and Marine enlisted men. The combination of our selective service policies, our AFQT testing of both drafted and volunteers, the need for skilled enlisted men in many areas of the armed forces, all conspired to assign blacks in greater numbers to the combat units of the Army and Marine Corps. Early in the war, when blacks made up about 11.0% of our V'nam force, black casualties soared to over 20% of the total (1965, 1966). Black leaders protested and Pres Johnson ordered that black participation should be cut back in the combat units. As a result, the black casualty rate was cut to 11.5% by 1969."


a cut and paste job brought to you by the friendly people at MM

the % of blacks dying in VietNam would have gone sky high had the black leaders not made a huge fuss about all this.
this is the problem with the internet: there is always some truth being held back or left unsaid.