Thread: Bold Bush Initiative

I'd sure like to see someone put a boot up Chirac's ass.

Originally Posted by austinite

Bush is not sitting on his hands hoping he gets re-elected. Check out this bold plan for reform in the Middle East:

"Buoyed by the 15-0 UN security council vote, Mr Bush and Tony Blair were seeking a three-pronged follow-up that would involve greater Nato involvement in Iraq, plans to bring western-style democracy and economic reform to the Middle East and north Africa and a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

This is likely just rhetoric. Western-style democracy would be totally contrary to America's interests. Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa would be WORSE than the current situation in several countries.

Originally Posted by Mr_Snafu

This is likely just rhetoric. Western-style democracy would be totally contrary to America's interests. Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa would be WORSE than the current situation in several countries.

OK, this isn't the first time and certainly won't be the last but, I'm confused. How will this make things WORSE?

Bush will never make any progress with his Middle East initiatives until he makes a serious commitment to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

964 Israelis and 3,012 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000 and the situation isn't getting any better.

I am thinking the Palestinians will be killed off before any resolution is made.

I would like to see Bush's plan for this Middle East stuff.

I have a plan to make a million dollars, but I have no idea how I am going to go about it. I bet Bush's plan is very similar in scope.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

OK, this isn't the first time and certainly won't be the last but, I'm confused. How will this make things WORSE?

Becuase the result of a free, fair, and democratic election in Saudi Arabia would produce a Wahabbi government. One of the biggest fears of the U.S. government would be the loss of the power of the Royal Saudi family.

In Egypt, the U.S. government has poured billions of dollars of support for the current Egyptian regime and turned its head away of human rights, because of the strengh of Islamic extremists, and the large proportion of the populace that heavily sympathisez with them.

Yemen, Qatar, and several other nations as well.

The U.S. has been quashing democracy there for decades and will continue to do so. The current governments are ruthless, oppressive--and also a lot more cooperative with the U.S. than would be the result of fair elections. Even in Syria, many experts claim Assad is better than a "democratic" alternative.

The exception is Iran. Most research indicates that free and fair elections could cause a political shift towards a more progressive center, even by Iranian standards. I don't see it happening soon though, but with Iran's younger population continueing to grow, we likely will see a lot more about Iran and its culture clashes in the coming years.

I understand what Mr Snafu is saying, and agree with him on Iran. When I was in the Gulf with the military we were always told there is a reason why it is called the Persian Gulf. If you can get Iran to move to a more progressive stance, which is where most of the country would like to go, you change the entire Middle East. Iraq is a start. That will put tremendous pressure on the current "government" in Iran if you can get a semi-democratic, progressive regime in place in Iraq. When I say progressive, I mean at least thinking in the 18th century. Take what you can get.

There are two things that must happen. #1, and there is no way around it, these terrorist supporting/harboring ME dictatorships/theocracys are going to have to be disarmed of WMDs. Without force is possable, with it if necessary. Then democratic change needs to happen. You speak about wahabisim and Saudi Arabia. I got news for you, there has been collusion between the House of Saud and Wahabism since the beginning of the sect. There has always been an unwritten agreement that the wahabis and the Saudi Royals that in return for not attacking the House of Saud, the Saudi Govt. would allow Wahabisim to become not only the accepted sect of Islam in Saudi Arabia, but they would allow them to export this ideology of hatred to other countrys. Mostly thru the form of religious schools, or "Madrasses".

The House of Saud also had another unwritten agreement with Al Qaeda, that Al Qaeda could do what they wanted as long as they didnt attack the Saudi Royal family. The House od Saud has always been a whorehouse, full of pimps,whores, and johns, who have always allowed the slaughter of foriegn infidels as long as it didnt affect them. That Al Qaeda started attacking the House of Saud was a major strategic failure by them. But even now Saudi Arabia is a major terrorist supporting/harboring Nation state. Here some reading/watching for some of you about the Saudis/Wahabisim http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ows/knew/view/ /http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/search/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/khadr/view/

You say were better off with a Syrian dictatorship? Well syria has been a major terrorists supporter for decades, and to a large degree has been a major destabalizer of the Jewish/Palistinian conflict. There will never be peace in the ME with such dictatorships in place............Rich

Originally Posted by Mr_Snafu

Becuase the result of a free, fair, and democratic election in Saudi Arabia would produce a Wahabbi government. One of the biggest fears of the U.S. government would be the loss of the power of the Royal Saudi family.

In Egypt, the U.S. government has poured billions of dollars of support for the current Egyptian regime and turned its head away of human rights, because of the strengh of Islamic extremists, and the large proportion of the populace that heavily sympathisez with them.

Yemen, Qatar, and several other nations as well.

The U.S. has been quashing democracy there for decades and will continue to do so. The current governments are ruthless, oppressive--and also a lot more cooperative with the U.S. than would be the result of fair elections. Even in Syria, many experts claim Assad is better than a "democratic" alternative.

The exception is Iran. Most research indicates that free and fair elections could cause a political shift towards a more progressive center, even by Iranian standards. I don't see it happening soon though, but with Iran's younger population continueing to grow, we likely will see a lot more about Iran and its culture clashes in the coming years.

OK, I'm following you now. I'm at a disadvantage here because I'm a bit of an optomist. I firmly believe that once the general populce gets a taste of the freedoms that democracy offers they'll want it more and more. As has been stated, Iran is a perfect example. I see no reason to believe the other countries in the region wouldn't/coulnd't be in the same boat.

Originally Posted by ALBOB

OK, I'm following you now. I'm at a disadvantage here because I'm a bit of an optomist. I firmly believe that once the general populce gets a taste of the freedoms that democracy offers they'll want it more and more. As has been stated, Iran is a perfect example. I see no reason to believe the other countries in the region wouldn't/coulnd't be in the same boat.

Do you think their taste of democracy will override their hate for the West? I don't know if it will or not, but I would think that democracy might even feed that hate. Who knows though, never hurts to try.


Rich, good post, I cannot believe I am saying this but I agree with you 100%.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Do you think their taste of democracy will override their hate for the West? I don't know if it will or not, but I would think that democracy might even feed that hate. Who knows though, never hurts to try.


Rich, good post, I cannot believe I am saying this but I agree with you 100%.

The hatred is nurture, not nature. If we can show the younger generations the falacies of what the older generations are trying to teach them, who knows?