Who is Paying the Taxes

Pepper · 10-26-2004, 04:36 PM

This is not intended to start a Bush/Kerry war, just thought it was interesting.

From Kiplinger:

The very highest earners are paying a lower share of income tax for the second consecutive year.

So says a new IRS breakdown of data on returns for 2002, the most recent filings it has reviewed.

The top 1% of filers paid 33.7% of all federal income taxes,down from 33.9% in 2001. They made just 16% of all adjusted gross income. An AGI of at least $285,400 was needed to be classified in the top 1%.

But the tax load on other upper-incomers increased from 2001. The top 5% paid 54% of total income taxes and made 31% of all AGI. Their share rose half a percentage point. They each had AGIs of $126,500or more.

The upper 10% of taxpayers, those with AGIs of at least $92,600, bore 66% of the federal income tax burden and made 42% of all income.Their tax share is almost a percentage point higher than the year before.

The bottom 50% of filers paid just 3.5% of income taxes in 2002,a drop of half a percentage point. They made only 14.2% of all income.Their piece of the tax burden is low because payroll taxes aren't included and many of them claim the earned income credit. Including payroll taxes in the figures raises their overall share of federal taxes to about 7%.

redspy · 10-26-2004, 06:43 PM

I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....not to post or even enter any political or religious thread on IronMagazine. (I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....)

But I can't take it anymore so I'm going to post something that pretends we have a progessive tax system and get those pinko, liberal commies fighting with me again!

Nice try Pepper

Saturday Fever · 10-26-2004, 07:09 PM

You know what is really funny? Everyone keeps saying "TAX THE RICH!" as if somehow THEY are responsible for everyone.

Last year John Kerry and his wife made something like $39 billion. They paid 13% in taxes? Why? Because the system is setup so that everyone can writeoff items and get breaks. And you know what, that 13% is more than anyone on this site made last year gross, so QUIT YOUR BITCHING. The rich ARE paying more in taxes.

Here's another tidbit most jackasses don't know. When the federal or even state governments INCREASE taxes, federal and state revenue from taxes DECREASES. See, a smart small business owner will pay himself less and let the rest come through as distributed, because then it isn't taxed. And a smart big business owner/board member/whatever is already doing everything he/she can to minimize what they're going to have to pay.

Because there is one constant in this country. If I take home $200,000 a year as my salary and you RAISE my taxes, I am going to find a way to still take home $200,000.

maniclion · 10-26-2004, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

You know what is really funny? Everyone keeps saying "TAX THE RICH!" as if somehow THEY are responsible for everyone.

Last year John Kerry and his wife made something like $39 billion. They paid 13% in taxes? Why? Because the system is setup so that everyone can writeoff items and get breaks. And you know what, that 13% is more than anyone on this site made last year gross, so QUIT YOUR BITCHING. The rich ARE paying more in taxes.

Here's another tidbit most jackasses don't know. When the federal or even state governments INCREASE taxes, federal and state revenue from taxes DECREASES. See, a smart small business owner will pay himself less and let the rest come through as distributed, because then it isn't taxed. And a smart big business owner/board member/whatever is already doing everything he/she can to minimize what they're going to have to pay.

Because there is one constant in this country. If I take home $200,000 a year as my salary and you RAISE my taxes, I am going to find a way to still take home $200,000.

Which is exactly my argument for not giving them tax breaks, they already weasel their way out of half their taxes so why lower them more.

busyLivin · 10-26-2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redspy

I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....not to post or even enter any political or religious thread on IronMagazine. (I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....)

But I can't take it anymore so I'm going to post something that pretends we have a progessive tax system and get those pinko, liberal commies fighting with me again!

Nice try Pepper

I was wondering if someone was going to call him out on that.

Saturday Fever · 10-26-2004, 07:21 PM

They aren't wiggling out of anything that you can't wiggle out of.

See, the truth is, if the rich aren't rich, nobody has anything. If you try to make rich people pay 46% income tax, what do you think is going to happen? The CEO of Whatever, In.c isn't going to make less. So he's going to cut jobs to keep HIS bottom line the same. Or he'll ship his jobs overseas and pay some indian $4 a day to maintain his databases. Either way, it's not the rich man who will get screwed over by such laws. It will be the common man whose position no longer exists because of some new tax law.

Plus, given that we can all wiggle out of taxes to an extent, and given that tax INCREASES cause revenue DECREASES, doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to just tax everyone equal?

Vieope · 10-26-2004, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busyLivin

I was wondering if someone was going to call him out on that.

BoneCrusher · 10-26-2004, 07:24 PM

The bottem line is that after his taxes were paid he still had enough to buy a fleet of H2's ... and a a dealership in every state to sell them from. Would you?

Stickboy · 10-26-2004, 07:36 PM

I dunno. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I'm a strong believer in a flat tax rate.

Tax all of us at 15%, no deductions, exemptions or loopholes. You make $100,000 you pay $15,000. You make $10,000, you pay $1,500. (I do think people making under $20K shouldn't be taxed at all.)

maniclion · 10-26-2004, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

They aren't wiggling out of anything that you can't wiggle out of.

See, the truth is, if the rich aren't rich, nobody has anything. If you try to make rich people pay 46% income tax, what do you think is going to happen? The CEO of Whatever, In.c isn't going to make less. So he's going to cut jobs to keep HIS bottom line the same. Or he'll ship his jobs overseas and pay some indian $4 a day to maintain his databases. Either way, it's not the rich man who will get screwed over by such laws. It will be the common man whose position no longer exists because of some new tax law.

Plus, given that we can all wiggle out of taxes to an extent, and given that tax INCREASES cause revenue DECREASES, doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to just tax everyone equal?

No he'll get his tax cut, hire another accountant to exploit more loopholes, still send his job's overseas cause he'll then just have enough to buy that Island off the coast so he can fly to it on the weekends and not have to look at the filthy bum that used to work in his IT department and now lives in the park he jogs through every morning.

maniclion · 10-26-2004, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickboy

I dunno. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I'm a strong believer in a flat tax rate.

Tax all of us at 15%, no deductions, exemptions or loopholes. You make $100,000 you pay $15,000. You make $10,000, you pay $1,500. (I do think people making under $20K shouldn't be taxed at all.)

That would piss off the rich guy that makes millions and can exploit his way down to 14.5% under the current system.

Stickboy · 10-26-2004, 07:54 PM

Oh, no doubt. But it's fair to everyone, isn't it?

Jeeper · 10-26-2004, 08:11 PM

How can these numbers possibly be true. I thought that the rich werent paying "their fair share".

BoneCrusher · 10-26-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickboy

I dunno. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I'm a strong believer in a flat tax rate.

Tax all of us at 15%, no deductions, exemptions or loopholes. You make $100,000 you pay $15,000. You make $10,000, you pay $1,500. (I do think people making under $20K shouldn't be taxed at all.)

You make $10,000 you are gonna starve and live in the worst places in the country. $1500 would make your barely survivable conditions unliveable by any standard.

tomas101 · 10-26-2004, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickboy

I dunno. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I'm a strong believer in a flat tax rate.

Tax all of us at 15%, no deductions, exemptions or loopholes. You make $100,000 you pay $15,000. You make $10,000, you pay $1,500. (I do think people making under $20K shouldn't be taxed at all.)

if only that were the case....why dont they do anything like this?

redspy · 10-26-2004, 10:37 PM

Pepper's post quietly ignores the issue of payroll taxes. This is convenient as most people at the low-end of the economic scale pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes.

I have a lawyer who owns his own practice and who earns around $320,000 a year. By his own admission he pays next to nothing in taxes each year due to his very creative accountant. The guy works very hard and I don't begrudge his success but it's unjust that he pays less tax than somebody earning 10 times less.

Pepper, perhaps you'd like to comment?

Stickboy · 10-26-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

You make $10,000 you are gonna starve and live in the worst places in the country. $1500 would make your barely survivable conditions unliveable by any standard.

That was an example. Note the other post where I said I don't think people making under $20K should be taxed at all. Perhaps you missed that one?

**Prince** · 10-26-2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redspy

Pepper, perhaps you'd like to comment?

probably not seeing that Pepper is a tax accountant and probably does the same thing!

Pepper · 10-27-2004, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redspy

I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....not to post or even enter any political or religious thread on IronMagazine. (I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....)

But I can't take it anymore so I'm going to post something that pretends we have a progessive tax system and get those pinko, liberal commies fighting with me again!

Nice try Pepper

Shows how much (or rather little) you read. Those stats show a DECREASE in the share the rich pay. Potentially more fuel for your anti-Bush rant.

Pepper · 10-27-2004, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redspy

Pepper's post quietly ignores the issue of payroll taxes. This is convenient as most people at the low-end of the economic scale pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes.

I have a lawyer who owns his own practice and who earns around $320,000 a year. By his own admission he pays next to nothing in taxes each year due to his very creative accountant. The guy works very hard and I don't begrudge his success but it's unjust that he pays less tax than somebody earning 10 times less.

Pepper, perhaps you'd like to comment?

Comment on what? THe payroll tax? The payroll tax is a very regressive tax system. I hate it. To compensate for the regressive nature, they passed the Earned Income Credit which is full of massive fraud. I agree completely that payroll taxes and really all taxes need to be considered in order to get a complete picture.

$320,000 and next to nothing in income tax is either 1) bullshit or 2) tax evasion (ie criminal.) Yest there are ways to be creative but not that creative. Creative is legal but all over a grey area.

Pepper · 10-27-2004, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redspy

Pepper's post quietly ignores the issue of payroll taxes. This is convenient as most people at the low-end of the economic scale pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes.

I have a lawyer who owns his own practice and who earns around $320,000 a year. By his own admission he pays next to nothing in taxes each year due to his very creative accountant. The guy works very hard and I don't begrudge his success but it's unjust that he pays less tax than somebody earning 10 times less.

Pepper, perhaps you'd like to comment?

First of all, I ignored nothing. That was a Kiplinger blurb. Second, if you take the time to read it, it does mention the fact that PR taxes are not considered. Do you have to turn everything into a pissing contest?

Second, could your friend be talking about next to nothing in payroll taxes? That I've done. The IRS hates it and I you have to not be a hog. (As I say, "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"

)

Pepper · 10-27-2004, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomas101

if only that were the case....why dont they do anything like this?

A flat tax is totally impractical. It would take 10 years in transition rules to get to it even if we decided to do it today.

For example, my practice just bought a building. We depreciate it over 39 years. How do you convert to "no deductions" and fairly treat existing equipment and buildings? Do the transition rules last 38 years? Does that deduction just go "poof?"

It is just like the national sales tax, it sounds good but when you start to look at it problems pop up everwhere.

Pepper · 10-27-2004, 08:19 AM

Hey, Manic / Redspy / BC, you guys will like this...I was just called a liberal by a guy who I exchange emails with.

**dg806** · 10-27-2004, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepper

A flat tax is totally impractical. It would take 10 years in transition rules to get to it even if we decided to do it today.

For example, my practice just bought a building. We depreciate it over 39 years. How do you convert to "no deductions" and fairly treat existing equipment and buildings? Do the transition rules last 38 years? Does that deduction just go "poof?"

It is just like the national sales tax, it sounds good but when you start to look at it problems pop up everwhere.

Could you do it in a lot less years? Say 5?

**Dale Mabry** · 10-27-2004, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepper

Do you have to turn everything into a pissing contest?

Now this makes me very angry. I have lived on this planet 28 years, and although I have heard of them, I have never seen or participated in any pissing contests. Is it for distance, color, time, height, or an amalgam of the four?

ALBOB · 10-27-2004, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Now this makes me very angry. I have lived on this planet 28 years, and although I have heard of them, I have never seen or participated in any pissing contests. Is it for distance, color, time, height, or an amalgam of the four?

Volume. How MUCH can you piss in a given amount of time. You have to be careful though, the splash will cost you style points.

**Dale Mabry** · 10-27-2004, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Volume. How MUCH can you piss in a given amount of time. You have to be careful though, the splash will cost you style points.

After how many beers? I think I would dominate such a contest, depending on how much splash is a factor.

redspy · 10-27-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepper

First of all, I ignored nothing. That was a Kiplinger blurb. Second, if you take the time to read it, it does mention the fact that PR taxes are not considered. Do you have to turn everything into a pissing contest?

Second, could your friend be talking about next to nothing in payroll taxes? That I've done. The IRS hates it and I you have to not be a hog. (As I say, "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"

)

It wasn't intended to be a pissing contest. I just wanted to see if I could goad you into political debate once again so that you would break your promise. And like a true Conservative you did.

BoneCrusher · 10-27-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickboy

That was an example. Note the other post where I said I don't think people making under $20K should be taxed at all. Perhaps you missed that one?

I missed it ... but my point applies none the less at $20,000

ALBOB · 10-27-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

After how many beers? I think I would dominate such a contest, depending on how much splash is a factor.

No limit on preparation. Have as many beers as you like. Also, this is NOT a tested event. Use as many diuretics as you can shove down your throat.

10-26-2004, 04:36 PM	#1
Pepper Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,543	Who is Paying the Taxes This is not intended to start a Bush/Kerry war, just thought it was interesting. From Kiplinger: The very highest earners are paying a lower share of income tax for the second consecutive year. So says a new IRS breakdown of data on returns for 2002, the most recent filings it has reviewed. The top 1% of filers paid 33.7% of all federal income taxes,down from 33.9% in 2001. They made just 16% of all adjusted gross income. An AGI of at least $285,400 was needed to be classified in the top 1%. But the tax load on other upper-incomers increased from 2001. The top 5% paid 54% of total income taxes and made 31% of all AGI. Their share rose half a percentage point. They each had AGIs of $126,500or more. The upper 10% of taxpayers, those with AGIs of at least $92,600, bore 66% of the federal income tax burden and made 42% of all income.Their tax share is almost a percentage point higher than the year before. The bottom 50% of filers paid just 3.5% of income taxes in 2002,a drop of half a percentage point. They made only 14.2% of all income.Their piece of the tax burden is low because payroll taxes aren't included and many of them claim the earned income credit. Including payroll taxes in the figures raises their overall share of federal taxes to about 7%. My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

10-26-2004, 07:09 PM	#3
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	You know what is really funny? Everyone keeps saying "TAX THE RICH!" as if somehow THEY are responsible for everyone. Last year John Kerry and his wife made something like $39 billion. They paid 13% in taxes? Why? Because the system is setup so that everyone can writeoff items and get breaks. And you know what, that 13% is more than anyone on this site made last year gross, so QUIT YOUR BITCHING. The rich ARE paying more in taxes. Here's another tidbit most jackasses don't know. When the federal or even state governments INCREASE taxes, federal and state revenue from taxes DECREASES. See, a smart small business owner will pay himself less and let the rest come through as distributed, because then it isn't taxed. And a smart big business owner/board member/whatever is already doing everything he/she can to minimize what they're going to have to pay. Because there is one constant in this country. If I take home $200,000 a year as my salary and you RAISE my taxes, I am going to find a way to still take home $200,000. yay.

10-26-2004, 07:21 PM	#6
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	They aren't wiggling out of anything that you can't wiggle out of. See, the truth is, if the rich aren't rich, nobody has anything. If you try to make rich people pay 46% income tax, what do you think is going to happen? The CEO of Whatever, In.c isn't going to make less. So he's going to cut jobs to keep HIS bottom line the same. Or he'll ship his jobs overseas and pay some indian $4 a day to maintain his databases. Either way, it's not the rich man who will get screwed over by such laws. It will be the common man whose position no longer exists because of some new tax law. Plus, given that we can all wiggle out of taxes to an extent, and given that tax INCREASES cause revenue DECREASES, doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to just tax everyone equal? yay.

10-27-2004, 08:19 AM	#23
Pepper Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,543	Hey, Manic / Redspy / BC, you guys will like this...I was just called a *liberal* by a guy who I exchange emails with. My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

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10-26-2004, 06:43 PM	#2
redspy Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,040	I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....not to post or even enter any political or religious thread on IronMagazine. (I, Pepper, hereby solemnly swear....) But I can't take it anymore so I'm going to post something that pretends we have a progessive tax system and get those pinko, liberal commies fighting with me again! Nice try Pepper

10-26-2004, 07:24 PM	#8
BoneCrusher Lift or Die Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 8,589	The bottem line is that after his taxes were paid he still had enough to buy a fleet of H2's ... and a a dealership in every state to sell them from. Would you?

10-26-2004, 07:36 PM	#9
Stickboy Rebel without a clue Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NM Posts: 1,115	I dunno. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I'm a strong believer in a flat tax rate. Tax all of us at 15%, no deductions, exemptions or loopholes. You make $100,000 you pay $15,000. You make $10,000, you pay $1,500. (I do think people making under $20K shouldn't be taxed at all.)

10-26-2004, 07:54 PM	#12
Stickboy Rebel without a clue Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NM Posts: 1,115	Oh, no doubt. But it's fair to everyone, isn't it?

10-26-2004, 08:11 PM	#13
Jeeper Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Phoenix Posts: 175	How can these numbers possibly be true. I thought that the rich werent paying "their fair share".

10-26-2004, 10:37 PM	#16
redspy Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,040	Pepper's post quietly ignores the issue of payroll taxes. This is convenient as most people at the low-end of the economic scale pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes. I have a lawyer who owns his own practice and who earns around $320,000 a year. By his own admission he pays next to nothing in taxes each year due to his very creative accountant. The guy works very hard and I don't begrudge his success but it's unjust that he pays less tax than somebody earning 10 times less. Pepper, perhaps you'd like to comment?

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