BoneCrusher

I did ...

busyLivin

I wonder what the consensus will be with a free Iraq. Was it worth it? Time may or may not tell.

I'm predicting Bush will go down in history as one of the greats...

I know.. go ahead and laugh!

class Liberalism
{
public void main(){
while (1 != 2)
{ Bitch(); Moan(); BlameBush(); }}
}

Pepper

QuestionGuy is an asshat.

IAB has much patience.

Randy

Well let see, how many civilian casualties did we lose on the 9/11 attack? For what? sensless terrorism. I can't say how many civilian casualties there are in Iraq, but maybe they should have thought of this before launching a Terrorist plot against the US? Hell, how many civilians did Saddam himself kill? That crazy bastard was notorious for killing his own people. At least the US didn't launch a terrorist attack. We are there in an effort to eliminate the war on terror. Nobody wants civilian casualties.

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NickB

HOLY FUCK DUDE. Fuck.

Iraq did not attack the WTC on 9/11/01

Randy

I didn't say Iraq did attack the WTC.

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redspy

As our good friend Tommy Franks of US Central Command informs us, "We don't do body counts". Consequently you can track mainstream media reports using Iraqbodycount.net (check out the sources for each death report) or you can run a more indepth study. If you look at the methodology of the study it's fairly robust given the hostile environment and the difficulty of the subject matter. The report has been published in the Lancet and other respected publications and they wouldn't touch it if they though it was that questionable.

The real issue is that most people don't want to hear about civilian deaths because they don't care. Americans watch an emasulated war which highlights precision weapons and amazing technology. They don't see thousands of American soldiers with gruesome wounds and emtional scars. On American news you watch missiles taking off - On Al Jazeera the Middle East sees the carnage of the missiles landing and killing innocents. Sadly, many people in this country see the lives of others as not as important as American lives, hardly values of a fundamentalist Christian nation.

Most of the US military are fine people, however, there is a core of people who shoot first and ask questions later. They are not held accountable to the Geneva convention or the ICC. Compare the rules of engagement of the US against the UK and you'll see a clear difference if you care to look.

If you think your nation is above the Geneva Convention and the ICC you immediately lose your moral standing in the world. The abuses in Iraqi prison and other military camps where people are imprisoned without charge or legal defense are unconstitutional.

milliman

Why do you believe that ? Conspiracy theory again ? ? ?

They (terrorists) take every opportunity to show deaths that they can.
Remember the so called "wedding party" that we blew up. They found some of the bodies there had been planted there. They had been dead longer than the time from when we bombed it.

How could we then kill a whole bunch of people and cover it up ?
If it was just Bush reporting it then maybe, but the press does not love Bush and the terrorists, or Al Jezerra, however you spell that, would make sure those deaths (and greatly exagerated too) were published everywhere.

Quitters never win, and winners never quit ! ! !

Who says big guys can't do pull ups ?

Wide grip, behind the neck:

. 37 @ 182 lbs
. 33 @ 198 lbs

redspy

You've immediately dismissed the report as it doesn't align with your political view. Show me a more accurate source and I promise to carefully evaluate before (pre) judging.

Randy

I totally agree with Milliman,

The media always will blow things way out of proportion. Naturally those that don't want us there will make it look like we are murderers and what not. From what I seen the citizens were pretty happy we were there while Saddam was in power. Then after we brought Saddam to justice and dismantled the alkida terrorist network they wanted us out.

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Archangel

Well now, that a real intelligent response!!!

"I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

"For NOTHING is impossible with GOD" - Luke 1:37

redspy

Well, offer an alternative if you dismiss the report. Denial and blaming the media for everything doesn' cut it.

Randy

If I had the facts and was responsible for accountability toward civilian casualties of war, then I would do just that. I'm just speaking freely here and giving my overal opinion of how media in general will greatly exaggerate and over inflate reality.

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redspy

When you read the methodology of the report we'll talk more.

milliman

This looks more reasonable and believable than the 100K.

Come on Red, this has nothing to do with Christian values. War is War and people do die. The Christians are the ones who usually want to go and help their neighbor. Our Christian brothers in this country are always reaching to help others just like the good Samaritan.

Correction, they are held accountable. The woman is the photo is being discipined as well as others.

I would like to see the rules of engagement. Where did you find them ?

Are the terrorists being held accountable ? Beheadings and all ?

All of the civilized countries have accepted the Geneva Convention and it does still apply to us. However, it was set up for a "normal war" where soldiers wear uniforms. When the was is over, the prisoners are returned to their country to live with the families.

Our war is against an enemy that does not wear a uniform. If released, these prisoners would fight us again. So how can you say that they should be released ? Has Osama given up and said troops go home. or now is a time to make peace ? No, he has said to fight the infidels. continue to fight and hurt them as bad as possible.

So how can you say they should be released?

Geneva Convention says when war is over. Is it over ? ? ?

Quitters never win, and winners never quit ! ! !

Who says big guys can't do pull ups ?

Wide grip, behind the neck:

. 37 @ 182 lbs
. 33 @ 198 lbs

milliman

Red,

Your signature has nothing to do with "Compassionate Conservatism".
That is bunk and you know it. You come up with some real cool stuff, can't you find a better signature than that, or at least change the title.

Randy

Will that help eliminate the casualties of war? I wish I could say that it would.

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BoneCrusher

Now comes the hard part for me in being an American. I am in agreement with the need for oil, but not in agreement with how we are getting it. I long for a better energy program, but have no one to look for who is on track with that need. The idea of world domination is what the country's leadership is clearly intent upon, excluding those countries that either have nothing we want or are too well defended to attack , which is not my idea of America either. So now we have BushCo for another term with all the threats that they bring to the table and I am forced to ask who is going to be the voice of reason here?

Randy

Your in Texas BC, can I pickup a few barrels of oil from you?
With the gas prices the way they are, it would kill me to drive all the way over to Iraq to get my oil?

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redspy

The studies are based on very different data. Iraqbodycount.net only factors in reports from the main newswire services. The 100,000 number was a scientific study of various areas of Iraq and interviews with family members and uses extrapolation. Even the UK government is evaluating this report and hasn't immediately dismissed it like you and other.

I admit that was a poke in the eye, but I still contend a lot of people don't care about the death of muslims.

That's not accountability, that's a government saving face. These troops were likely following unwritten rules. This scandal goes as high as the administration.
My cousin in serving for the UK, he'll be out of there soon I hope.

Just because terrorists are scumbags doesn't me we have to operate at their level. Rounding up and torturing innocent people really doesn't help our cause. Sure, it make you feel better about yourself but it's not the answer. We should be proud of our freedom and integrity.

Let me share a little secret with you: terrorism is nothing new. We've been fight terrorism in Europe for centuries and haven't had to sacrifice civil liberties. Just because America got hit doesn't mean we're in a new age, yes it was a huge attack but put in context death from terrorism is statistically insignificant. You're more likely to be killed in a car. My point is that although terrorism is a great threat put into perspective it's not that likely to kill you. The war on terror is unlikely to be won using weapons alone and ignoring the root causes. If you believe the the government we'll always be at war with terrorists, they will not stop and progressively you'll loose more civil liberties.

You can't let the government use the threat of terrorism to attack the constitution when it pleases. You're heading down a rocky road if you do.

milliman

It's not that it does not fit my political view, it does not pass the smell test.
I will look at information on both sides and try to evaluate a persons bias too. Do they have something to gain by exagerating numbers or results. I am sure you would do the same.

If I cite the pentagon, you would dismiss it. What if I cited Rush Limbaugh, I bet you would throw it out too.

Here is a link that said that CNN has counted 3,240 civilian deaths in 5 weeks, but thought it was much higher than that. It does not say who killed the people, only that they died. CNN then gave the link you had to bodycount.com. But this is from "Antiwar.com". Does this name sound unbiased to you ? There number at least seems to be more believable.
But it does not distinguish between civilians and terrorists.

http://www.xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/news/000344.html

Who had been killing most of the people lately? 50 new cops ?
Car bombs. Hardly us.

Quitters never win, and winners never quit ! ! !

Who says big guys can't do pull ups ?

Wide grip, behind the neck:

. 37 @ 182 lbs
. 33 @ 198 lbs

redspy

1. My point was the data wasn't based on press reports for the 100,000 deaths study. So you can't blame the media.

2. The Iraq war was unnecessary and therefore the civilivian deaths were avoidable.

redspy

Of course I'd dismiss Penagon figures because they've told us they don't do body counts. The two sources I've shown you aren't a bunch of left wing whacks, they're trying to report numbers that nobody else is bothering to.