Creation vs. Evolution

**Rich46yo** · 11-08-2004, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by milliman

Here is the fossil formation problem with evolution.

How is a fossil formed ? An animal has to die, then get buried quickly by mud and silt to preserve its body. If the body is left on top of the soil, other animals eat it and tear it to pieces. When a fish dies, it usually floats on the water and is eaten by birds or other fish. So it would be a rare day to find a fossil under normal methods. And when you did find one, you would usually find a single specimen.

I would think so. But animals are covered quickly, they die in tar pits, are covered by volcanic explosions, and are otherwise preserved.
What do you find in real life ? Ever been fossil hunting ?
No. I rely on the work of others to become informed. I have however spent almost my entire life in the outdoors and have sat for uncounted hours watching animals interact. Mostly tho , even tho I have a job that makes me rely on evidence, I rely on the work of others.
You find fossils all over the place. Huge layers of fossils of all types of critters.
How could you explain this ?

If you had a globlal flood (Noah), which is also reported in most cultures around the world on all continents, then you would have mass death all over the world. the animals would die quickly and due to the floods be covered in mud quickly and fossilized in mass.

Seems to fit what we find pretty well.

We already have that, when the dinosaurs died off. They did it so quickly that a global catastrophe is suspected of killing them off in a very few years. This catastrophe, whatever it was, changed the earths habitat and the dinosaurs for the most part were unable to adopt. Global change disrupted the food supply for the plant eaters, the decline of the plant eaters led to the die out of the predators who depended on them as food. And the whole, for the most part, dinosaur family died off. What survived on land were the ancestors of amphibians, reptiles like crocs,snakes,birds, and small ammals. These small rodent sized mammals are the ancestors of you and I. Over 65 million years, thru the process of natural selection, they evolved into a multitude of other types of mammals. Including Homo Sapien.

And breeding horses, for no matter how long, is irrelevant. For natural selection to be observed there can be no human involvement or manipulation of events of any kind. You would have to do as Darwin did. To go to a unspoiled place like the Galapago's and just observe.........................................Ri ch

**shutupntra1n** · 11-08-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

In a way, I completely agree with your statement here lis. Because IMHO, we make our fate. Why should I change what I want my fate to be to incorporate somebody elses' beleifs?

I don't argue with people religion anymore than I care at work why they can't use their cell phone cause they are with a shitty company. At the end of the day, I can only help my own fate

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

Where we are, we are born/have a beginning. That is not necessarily the case for Him & His existence.

Okay, everybody asks what is the meaning of "our" life.... but your statement makes me wanna ask "what's the meaning of GOD's life?"

BTW busy,

Lis and I have had several chats about religion. I actually enjoy trying to understand how othre people think. 'although' it scares me at times when I realize how very different we can be.

**busyLivin** · 11-08-2004, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

Okay, everybody asks what is the meaning of "our" life.... but your statement makes me wanna ask "what's the meaning of GOD's life?"

I'd be a very rich man if I had that answer!

**shutupntra1n** · 11-08-2004, 05:08 PM

Actually Luke, I only posted here cause I highly enjoy Crono's posts. No religious this-n-that for me. I'll go to church if I want that sorta reinforcement. Y'll have fun now and play nice

**Vieope** · 11-08-2004, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

Okay, everybody asks what is the meaning of "our" life.... but your statement makes me wanna ask "what's the meaning of GOD's life?"

Damn

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 05:09 PM

Dont' leave lis... i'm asking you to join in!

unless you don't want to.

**busyLivin** · 11-08-2004, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

BTW busy,

Lis and I have had several chats about religion. I actually enjoy trying to understand how othre people think. 'although' it scares me at times when I realize how very different we can be.

I agree completely. I love hearing what other people think, but we're never all going to agree on a subject like this.

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

I agree completely. I love hearing what other people think, but we're never all going to agree on a subject like this.

Well, I agree on THAT part

I'm attracted to 'irony'. It's something I find really interesting. It makes life feel more like a Hemmingway novel or something

.

And I find it so ironic how America has developed into a pretty damn seriously religious country! Especially since is was founded by europeans who wanted to escape religion (that ruled their government). Now today, we have Goerge W. and Europe is scared of us and our churches

. Gotta love it.

I used to work in a machine shop in tool and die assembly and met lotsa interesting characters. But they ALL built hot rods, with Ford flat heads and went to church like clockwork. I drove european cars to work..... they tell me to buy american or get out of their country (michigan) lol. That reminds me of religion (IHO)

My mother is a nurse and my father is a science teacher... In case that helps people understand where I am coming from.

**Crono1000** · 11-08-2004, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

In a way, I completely agree with your statement here lis. Because IMHO, we make our fate. Why should I change what I want my fate to be to incorporate somebody elses' beleifs?

hey, CUN... I mean SUNT said she doesn't want to get into a religious debate, don't drag her into it

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

What's your stand on 'black holes'? They also cannot be tested, but well supported by proven theories and mathematics.

Really cool and interesting concept. Makes for all sorts of episodes on Star Trek.

Are you a mill worker? Tool and die? Machinist? What religion are ya if you don't mind me asking?

CPA. Bean counter, tax guy.

I'm a confirmed roman catholic BTW. I even have a little sister that 'cants' the alla luya song.

I would fall into the Born Again Christian group. No particular church as long as the think the Bible is the word of God.

What is "Cants" ?

response in bold.

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

I don't think anyone's trying to convince anyone of anything. Just giving input on why you believe what you believe.

Good point Busy,

I am not trying to convince anyone.

There is so much that does not support evolution, but you never hear about it. So I am trying to bring forth my little amount that I know or can remember.

Each person can say "Very interesting" and throw it away, or file it in their memory banks. For me, it answered the questions in my mind I needed to be a Christian. I could not believe the Bible, if I could not believe the first Book. So it is a big and exciting part of my life to know that it is all possible thru creation.

**Rich46yo** · 11-08-2004, 05:41 PM

I dont think were "argueing". And creationists certainly have as much right to an opinion as I have. This thread has actually "evolved" in a fairly respectful and adult manner.

Course that just might be its appearance, since I have about 6 assholes on ignore........................

.............Rich

**maniclion** · 11-08-2004, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rich46yo

I dont think were "argueing". And creationists certainly have as much right to an opinion as I have. This thread has actually "evolved" in a fairly respectful and adult manner.

Course that just might be its appearance, since I have about 6 assholes on ignore........................

.............Rich

Am I one?

**busyLivin** · 11-08-2004, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rich46yo

This thread has actually "evolved" in a fairly respectful and adult manner.

It has, suprisingly... they usually get pretty ugly.

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by milliman

response in bold.

Cantor's sing at the alter during mass. I go to church on thanksgiving and christmas

"bean counter" LMAO!

It's good to know that they don't always take the bible to be the word of god, because that book can be contorted into anyshape if you know what I mean.

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rich46yo

Course that just might be its appearance, since I have about 6 assholes on ignore........................

.............Rich

That's uncalled for, we all know who you're talking about.

And don't forget to check out my sig again

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 06:17 PM

Cool universe picture. Some kind of nubula.

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 06:31 PM

horse head nebula!

GREAT pic MR. Bean

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rich46yo

Yeah? And where did you get this? I can't find it right now, but I will look later. Galaxies were going in different directions than the expected expanding ball theory.

From MTV? First off all the Hubble "discovered" was the age of the Universe. The one who discovered how its actually expanding was the guy its named after, in the '20s or thereabouts. There is no such conflict with the Big Bang theory because when the "big bang" happened there was no such thing as space, matter, and time. That came later. There is no center of the Universe and there is no edge. And everything, except for a few galaxies locked with ours by gravity, is moving away from us. Well, there would be a theoretical center if you worked backwards to the original spot or area. The no edge concept is really intriguing. What is it expanding into then, an empty void ?

Nothing is flat, the Universe exists in 3 spacial dimensions, but a 2 dimensional model to imagine it all is this......imagine you ink a bunch of dots on a balloon and then start blowing it up. No matter what dot you stand on, on the expanding balloon, it appears your on the center and everything else is moving away from you. The Universe is the same way, no matter where you are it appears that your in the center and everything else is moving away. But the paradox is there is no center because the Universe was created before there even was any laws of physics. Rich, do you have access to any pictures that show the universe ? If this is true and we are on the edge of the balloon, then everything on one side of us should be totally empty, since we have not expanded into it yet. But you do not find that. You find stars and galaxies all around us in all directions.

What E. Hubble discovered was that the Universe was expanding at a non-uniform rate. That Objects farther from us are moving away at a faster speed, as we are from them. Don't ask me what all this shit means because I forgot, didn't really understand it in the first place, don't want to look it up again, and probably wouldn't understand it this time either. I know he used the Doppler effect which I do understand.

And to find other earth like planets, in life zone stable orbits around hospitable Stars, would be huge. As was the discovery of other planets in the first place, as was the discovery of the universe. Each one further chips away at the nonsense the Church preaches and when we eventually find evidence of life evolving on other worlds the whole house of religious cards will come crashing down. I wouldn't bet the house on that happening.

I think religion is a good thing. And I'm not knocking it! But they should really open their eyes and step into reality..........Rich

Maybe I mis-stated what I had heard. I should go listen to the astronomy guys again some time. The brain in this old fart has been know to show signs decay and not recall info correctly.

Rich,
notes in bold

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Luke9583

horse head nebula!

GREAT pic MR. Bean

**milliman** · 11-08-2004, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by busyLivin

It has, suprisingly... they usually get pretty ugly.

Quit talking about how ugly I am. The wife reminds me enough already.

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 06:42 PM

I always loved the 'star lab' in grades school. You know, that inflated silver thing w/ the protector inside and funky spaced out 'tangerine dream'esque music

. I did planetariums too

**Luke9583** · 11-08-2004, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by milliman

Rich,
notes in bold

wonder if he could read that? he might have blocked himself

**Monolith** · 11-08-2004, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by milliman

Uh no ! Selective breeding for desireable traits does not produce evolution. A horse still has horse babies. The horse does not evolve into another animal.

Uhh... what exactly is your definition of evolution, then, if not the selection of desirable traits? You do realize that that is more or less the core of evolutionary theory, right...?

Originally Posted by milliman

The point has escaped you dude. DNA is responsible for the genetic blue print to build your body. It took intelligence to write the genetic code to make it work.

Gah. This isnt a difficult concept, man. DNA appears to be this incredibly intricate and perfectly designed map for creating a human. But what im suggesting is that we wouldnt know the difference, because we have nothing to compare it to. If there were some error in the "genetic code" which gave us hair in our armpits when we werent supposed to have any there, is humanity ever going to realize it? No. If there were some error in the code and we were supposed to have twice the intelligence we currently have, will we ever realize it? No.

DNA, humanity, life, our reality - it all seems perfect because it's all we know. Our entire universe could very well be the equivelent of a sulfur vent, and we would never know it. We have absolutely no way to categorize ourselves as anything other than "beings" when we have no tangible experience with anything beyond our own existence and our own reality. For all we know, what we call intelligence might very well be considered mere instinct by a more intelligent entity. We consider ourselves as perfect beings, yet some other entity could very well consider us yet another generic, mindless organism... just breeding, reproducing, and dying.

Originally Posted by milliman

How did the first organism get there ? Imagine yourself looking at earth when it was first formed. A blob of stuff. Lets assume that a lightening bolt started the first life form. How did it survive ?
What would it eat ? How would it reproduce ?

Well, it's not like an enzyme has to "eat" or it dies. It doesnt exactly reproduce, either (at least not in the sense youre implying). Talk to a chemist if youre really that curious... i wouldnt do it justice. Suffice to say it was a whole lot of aminos, nucleic acids, polypeptide bonds, etc, all having their way with each other. Eventually you get organelles - pro-mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc... the first prokaryotic units. Beyond that, you get to the infamous blue-green algae.

Anyway, it's not as simple as *poof*, and a gerbil jumps out of a petri dish. Each little miniscule step towards greater efficiency (and, ultimately, what we call life) could take hundreds of millions of years.

Originally Posted by milliman

I guess this proves you hate religion.
We were not talking about religion, we were talking about creation versus evolution.

Sorry, my mistake. I wasnt aware that non-religious people believed in creationism. Can you educate me?

**Crono1000** · 11-08-2004, 10:23 PM

tit gave a horse head once. She calls that Saturday night.

**Crono1000** · 11-08-2004, 10:23 PM

... nebula

**Duncans Donuts** · 11-09-2004, 01:52 AM

I believe God created the universe

**camarosuper6** · 11-09-2004, 02:12 AM

Liberals will eventually probably try to sue God for not creating all things "equal" in the universe.

**OceanDude** · 11-09-2004, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Monolith

rofl.
...Ok, so in the past 2000 years, what has the christian god done? Let's see... he's caused at least 9 major wars by my count, resulting in the toppling of empires and the deaths of millions of people. Uh, i guess thats a "point" for god.

Lets look at science over the past 2000 years. What has it done for us? Well, it put a roof over our heads. It gave us agriculture. It gave us domesticated animals. It gave us the steam engine, the industrial revolution, the airplane, the space shuttle, and the computer. Its made war a shorter and less bloody affair. How many points should we give science for that?

Add up the two sides... and im thinking science has the better "intelligent design." Or at the very least, if given the choice between two guiding principles, i'd hope that most people would go with science. It's done more for us than any of the worlds endlessly morphing religions have.

Uhm Monolith, you were doing pretty well in the dialog/debate until you tossed this out. On the one hand you imply that there is no Christian God and then go on to crucify him and blame him for all these religious wars. If you mean people use their religions in ways that are not consistent with teachings then perhaps you can lay the blame on these humans but I don't think you can rationally blame Christianity on 9 wars without being able to see who the aggressors were and what the motives were and what was in the hearts of the people who were in these wars. How many unrecorded and recorded wars are attributed to Godless men? I bet you it's thousands more so than the 9 you mention. Certainly the Greek Gods are responsible for a lot more (fora start ref. Alexander the Great, The Trojan Wars, the Babylonian empire, The Zulu Wars, Genghis Khan, The Khmer Rouge, Sun Zi Sun Tzu, The Roman Empire's (not holy Rome) Conquests, The Viking Hoards, The Saxons, The Normans, The Barbarians etc. etc. etc.)

Also what you attribute to Science is nothing of the sort. Although I concede Science has produced many discoveries (e.g. we had roofs over our heads in the first caves, we have had wild corn and agriculture long before it was cultivated [and were tossed out of the original Garden of Eden

], among the first domesticated animals we had unkosher pigs [but we may have evolved from them?], steam has been blowing around in nature's hot springs and vents for a long time). For the most part all science has been able to do is emulate and approximate what it observes in Nature (although we do now have more abstract predictive mechanisms). In a manner of speaking, a religious person can argue that Science can be viewed as the study of Gods works in Nature and the application of those principals to man's own vision (which has also been a large cause for unintended consequences and misery). Ponder that we have Science to thank for the Holy Atomic Bomb.

OD

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