Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will not kill innocents.

Originally Posted by topolo

Michael Moore, college droput and 400 pound goober, what a role model.

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

insult him all you want but can you point out what is inaccurate in his "letter"?

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will not kill innocents.

Originally Posted by Pepper

I think President Bush is too busy nominating Supreme Court justices to give a damn what MM or RD think of him.

This "idiot" and "incompentent" president will be have a huge impact on the future of the judicial system.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will not kill innocents.

Originally Posted by gococksDJS

I hope Michael Moore is captured by terrorists and they make him watch Nazi propaganda films, then make him become a resident of a communist country and kill him for his outlooks on government. I hate that cockbag.

Originally Posted by Eggs

To tell you the truth... people that are criticizing Bush. You give the guy a hard time, but when was the last time a US president had to face as many hard decisions as he has had to?

At least Vietnam and what not were one incident. It sucked, but nothing slipped up to stick it in your ass when you weren't looking. Whether Bush is or isn't a good president... well the case is out. But regardless of that, one thing I do know is that he is one unlucky mofo with all this shit thats happened.

Originally Posted by Eggs

Well, now thats true

But Vietnam didn't start during the watergate scandal. That said, I'm sure that would have been sucky to deal with.

Regardless, even at that, its been 30 years since any kinda crazy crap happened like this. btw, as to Watergate, the president didn't handle that so well either

Originally Posted by Eggs

To tell you the truth... people that are criticizing Bush. You give the guy a hard time, but when was the last time a US president had to face as many hard decisions as he has had to?

At least Vietnam and what not were one incident. It sucked, but nothing slipped up to stick it in your ass when you weren't looking. Whether Bush is or isn't a good president... well the case is out. But regardless of that, one thing I do know is that he is one unlucky mofo with all this shit thats happened.

Originally Posted by kbm8795

H e l l o ? ? ?

Since I have the feeling that you weren't around during the Vietnam War, I doubt this comparison is even serious. At the same time we were engaged in Vietnam, we had massive student protests around the country (for YEARS) culminating in the killing of students by National Guard troops at two universities. We had radical groups which bombed symbols of oppression. Race riots set massive fires during several summers in almost every major industrial American city. The Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia; China exploded its first nuclear device, and there were huge strikes and labor unrest around the nation.

Originally Posted by Eggs

Sweet, Vietnam wasn't something that took place on our own shores. While it sucked, its different when its HERE. As to the rest, Bush has had some pretty big protests of his own. But just for my personal information, how many people were camped out in front of the presidents house then and refused to leave? and I mean his personal home.

You're comparing a few kiddies shot up at a college and some riots with the complete destruction of a city that was an economically strategic location? Somebody is always invading someone else in the world. Theres nothing new there.

Now as to the Cuban missle crisis. Look how tense that got and nobody had even attacked us yet.



You're right, he can't be any better than a pissant airmchair politician/stratigist, etc.



I'm not sure what the reasons are. Obviously we all agree that the response was not adequate. Unlike you however, I'm not going to point fingers and jump all over him until he at least has time to explain his actions, and until we find out exactly most of what went wrong.

Originally Posted by topolo

Michael Moore, college droput and 400 pound goober, what a role model.

Originally Posted by Eggs

To tell you the truth... people that are criticizing Bush. You give the guy a hard time, but when was the last time a US president had to face as many hard decisions as he has had to?

At least Vietnam and what not were one incident . It sucked, but nothing slipped up to stick it in your ass when you weren't looking. Whether Bush is or isn't a good president... well the case is out. But regardless of that, one thing I do know is that he is one unlucky mofo with all this shit thats happened.

Originally Posted by Pepper

Ah...I know it would not be long before KBM showed up with more of his "facts" and "good ideas."

I am going to assume that you are not serious about the constitutional amemdment. I think there is no better example of "hatred clouds your judgment" than KBM.

Originally Posted by kbm8795

He has already admitted that he can't explain his actions. However, he is still struggling with grasping the deliberate extent that his own federal agencies have prevented food, water, medical supplies, generators, and fuel from reaching our own citizens. The number of people who died to exposure, dehydration, and lack of insulin is astounding. On Friday morning alone, three babies died of dehydration.

The supplies were there. The trucks were there. The boats were there. Many troops were there. What wasn't there was, apparently, someone in this country capable of delivering the goods until a photo opportunity came along.

Vietnam WAS about here. Of a population under 180 million, we had 500,000 draftees/regular forces in Southeast Asia. We had large sections of major cities engulfed in flames - every summer - some simultaneously, with destruction and loss of life and property. There were major assassinations. But the governors and the mayors and the President at least knew how to work together to deal with a situation - they didn't ignore the situation. This nation has handled natural disasters before - but the delay in this case looks increasingly suspicious and deliberate.

Reducing publically elected officials to tearful begging for a bottle of water from our federal government is an outrage. We PAID for that damned water, for the troops who rescue these people, for the food we provide them to eat, for the evacuation vehicles for them to be saved and for the opportunity to rebuild their lives.

Instead, we have a President acting like he's running his own damned Jerry Lewis Telethon, begging Americans to donate money to take care of a disaster in our own country. Why doesn't he just beg Americans for donations to pay for the war in Iraq and use our tax money to take care of our own disasters?

As one right winger said on a call-in program, this disaster only underscores why people need to realize they have to take care of themselves. Bullshit. What it underscores is that our own federal government isn't worth the price of a roll of toilet paper.

What this President has not offered to do is to personally call each of those families that lost someone because of his inaction and express his condolences. I suppose if Karl Rove instructs him to do so, he might be able to manage such an act of charity.

If Congress had any balls, they would immediately draft a constitutional amendment allowing any state or local official to unilaterally accept foreign assistance and cut off all communication with the federal government on disaster relief.

Originally Posted by kbm8795

But hey - how much energy does it take to just memorize cliches and wave the flag anyway?

Originally Posted by Eggs

You failed to respond to the criticism regarding the state/local governments.

There was much too little information in your story to warrant a response.

If you're going to address my posts, at least do so in regards to what I'm saying.

No one has appointed you the arbiter of discussion.


There are assets in place that the state government has not allowed entrance to the disaster area.

From the information you provided, we know of one possible example, and even that one involves two standing trailers of medical service that would have to placed somewhere near a temporary shelter. There could be a number of reasons for that delay - the story didn't go into the matter. The city was flooded...the Superdome and Convention Centers were supposed to be evacuation points to other locations. We do know that generators for temporary shelters were diverted by FEMA to Baton Rouge because the proposed shelters didn't meet regulation. So we really don't know why yet for that delay - but your same story claims that volunteer medical personnel were able to secure arrangements through the state.

Along with this, many people that actually have to work with the local agencies were not given proper information from these. The state/local officials crumbled and didn't do their job.

State and local agencies had communications problems, specifically because they chose to use cellphones and landlines at first. Of course, communication wasn't enhanced by the charge from the President of Jefferson Parish that FEMA cut their wires.

Did the fed fug it up? Yeah. They weren't helped any by the local governments though. And crying on TV doesn't count. Mr. Mayor or Mr. whomever should have made a charge and presented what was going on to federal officials like FEMa. FEMA didn't know about the dome?

How many times and in how many ways do they have to ask for assistance? The bogus excuse issued by the head of DHS that he "didn't know" there were all those people at the convention center is ridiculous. Even if he didn't receive it from the locals, it was all over the media. His response? "I've been getting more information from the newspaper." Right.

Thats pretty stupid... but it also shows a complete breakdown on the local level for relaying information. The affected area, once again, was 90,000sq miles. The federal government does NOT have the assets to comb every square inch of that.

They certainly have assets that the states don't have. At the present time, this nation is occupying two countries. One of them is the size of California. And, like it or not, they have to comb every square inch now anyway. Dead bodies and other health issues. And there's already a dysentary breakout in Mississippi.

When I was stationed in Italy there was a freak flood that built up a huge amount of water in the hills behind a stone wall. After a day of raining the wall collapsed, and flooded the base I was at. This is no where near the scale of New Orleans, but let me tell you, every hand on the base was fully occupied with dealing with a flood that only covered a few acres.

That is the difference here. Not only was the Bataan not fully engaged in the effort, but for some reason, some National Guard troops were stopped by FEMA from entering the city with supplies. In Biloxi, Mississippi, Air Force personnel played basketball while residents attempted to recover right after the storm. They couldn't help because they had no orders. Not exactly a good indication of federal government support.

In New Orleans, one soldier was stopped by an evacuee and asked why it took them so long. According to the story account, he shrugged and replied that they were ready Monday afternoon but had no directives.


The flooding that took place due to Katrina was probably about a 29 million times the size of the flooding I've responded to. We had 80+ people containing our flooding. So on this scale to provide similar protection, it would require 2.304 BILLION people.

The initial flooding in New Orleans involved 30,000 homes. When the levee was breached, the Mayor appealed for helicopters to quickly attempt to plug the canal before the flood could encompass the city. He received one helicopter that was later diverted for more rescue missions.

Have you ever been in a flood and seen the devastation and been forced to handle all the side affects and unforseen circumstances? Actually, come to think of it, I've been in several others.

I've been in a hurricane.

Dont worry though, if every person in the US has 8.8 children we will have the forces necessary to handle natural disaster on this scale.

That just doesn't fly. This is one of the primary reasons for the existence of our armed forces. We can't tell the American people that we are capable of invading and occupying two nations but can't manage to provide assistance for our own population. The public isn't outraged about a response that is ongoing and requires time - it is furious about a response that was five days late while we watched people dying of hunger and thirst.

The president has not offered to call each persons family that died? Oh, thats rich, we're still finding the dead, almost everybody in the area is displaced, and who knows what else, and you're saying the president should go all every persons family? Tell you what, you get him a list of names involved... you go down there and ID the people, do a search for whome they are, then do a search for closest of kin, then provide him the list... and I'm sure he'd be thrilled to start the calling.

What is rich is that the President isn't taking any responsibility for those images of people who died while they waited for evacuation. There are still people waiting to be evacuated. What is the level of responsibility when the government wastes days arguing over who is going to supervise whom and human lives are being lost by the hour? And why should any member of the public believe some bureaucrat who hasn't spent one hour participating in the actual effort down there?
Show me the President down there working with the Lt. Governor on a boat rescue mission. Let's see Condi wrapping up dead bodies with the Sheriff's deputies. It ain't gonna happen and you know it. But we are supposed to dismiss the testimony of people working in the situation to embrace some bureaucratic excuse campaign from Washington. Did the President explain to some mother holding her dehydrating and dying baby in that crowded Convention Center that he'll let the buses through and give her some water once the government stopped fighting over who gets to be the general? Hell no. He had cheap photo ops - and two German press accounts are claiming even the Salvation food centers set up during his visit to Mississippi were taken down and carted off as soon as he left.


I do agree with local states being able to accept aid if a disaster occurs, but from what I've seen, they cant even accept aid from others in the US much less that from foreign countries.

They haven't had any trouble accepting aid from other states in this matter - but FEMA did. And since the Secretary of State was on vacation and has to approve offers of assistance from other countries, that only added to more delays. Some European countries have had teams ready for five days.

You're completely neglecting the responsibility of the local government. I'm not asking you to suck off the president, but at least doll our your criticism in regards to whome it is actually do and not just out of your personal hatred for him.