Pepper

1. they are rejecting Him.
2. I think it is pretty unreasonable to expect to be able understand why God does what he does.

What we think is fair or uncompassionate is totally irrelevant.

just sayin'

My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

Pepper

So, how do you take "lake of fire" figuratively?

My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

TJ Cline

or just brain dead

Nick+

pepper are you a christian?

Dale Mabry

I am going to hell, but my faith has nothing to do with it. I doubt, if hell exists, that a person's religious affiliation will have nearly as much to do with their fate than their actions, hence, alot of you folks will be joining them.

If sense were common, everyone would have it.

4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

Pepper

Yeah, it's better to have no foundation for your beliefs and just define God to be however you feel he should be.

My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

Pepper

Yes.

I wish Foreman would just stay out of ONE of these threads so a conversation can go on without the name calling.

My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

Nick+

Not sure about the name calling! Right you are a Christian Pepper- that helps clarify matters.

TJ Cline

Its open chat brother.

Feel free to bash, edit or delete me in the sports Forum when you wish

EDIT: BITE ME

lnvanry

its symbolism.....I think of the practically all of the old testament and a substantial portion of the new testament as poetic narratives that should be interpreted by its underlying meaning...not lakes of fire.

If someone found a small piece of an article from the Philly newspaper in 2000 years and it read "Eagles strip the Bears of all championship hopes"...That person might think of bird stripping or killing a bear???? Clearly a literal interpretation is off base here.

IMO a lot of holy scripture from all religions is sensationalized and dramatized. Lets not forget that modern day Bible was cut as pasted together by the papacy at the birth of the middle ages....There are plenty of gospels about Jesus that were omitted b/c it didn't reflect the papacy's interest

dougnukem

Matthew 5:28-30 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

2 Peter 2:3-5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

lnvanry

still quoting...

dougnukem

My quotes were not meant for you, but for the individual that asked for them. I realize you don't think using quotes from a Christian Bible in a thread about Christianity is allowable. So feel free to scroll past the biblical quotes.

lnvanry

10 4

BigDyl

Total ownage.

redspy

I'd rather end up in hell than with a bunch of Christians. So bring on the Lake of Fire

maniclion

Maybe I want to go to "Hell". What if I like dark mysterious gothic dungeon looking things better than fluffy cloudy, white heavenly things? Being surrounded by a bunch of Goody-Goody Gumdrop Gimps sounds more like hell to me than being around some awesome Demon Biker Ghouls and a bunch of hot micro-bikini clad Dolls, maybe a halo of glimmering gold with a harp doesn't appeal to me as much as a helmet of smoldering iron and hellish looking electric guitar.

"We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Natures inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
Thomas Edison: In conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone

Tier

You see pepper, they used to be literal. Then as people evolve more and our intellect increases everything becomes "figurative" because what it actually says doesn't make sense.

When they were writing the bible they chose to make everything figurative instead of just saying it for no reason except to confuse, because when you're listing the do's and donts of life you want to be VERY VERY VAGUE, right?

Forget about the commandments though, those aren't figurative, they just chose to makes those literal... Because .... Those are.... i give up..

Prince

gotta love the closed minded christian faith.

I really feel sorry for the millions of people in cultures that never even get exposed to christianity, I guess all of these people will all just burn in hell.

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Dale Mabry

...Or just be fortunate enough not to have their federal policies based on it.

If sense were common, everyone would have it.

4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

dougnukem

Hey, we resemble that remark.

silencer

Is this thread a Joke? I can't believe anyone could HONESTLY believe that someone who doesn't have the Christian faith will go to "Hell" where the red man is with his pointy tail and pitch fork. I find this thread half hilarious and half disturbing.

If anyone wants to watching something theological, watch/Download "The God Who Wasn't There"

Since the age of about 13 I had to go to Church on Monday, sometimes Wednesday, Friday and of Course Sunday, my school was an old British school, so by no means am I some random atheist who is annoyed about the post, but common, LOL.

dougnukem

This is how this thread is supposed to be discussed, silencer. He is just wanting to have a discussion about whether or not folks who don't follow the path of Christ will go to Hell. That's all. It's what Open Chat is for.

silencer

ok, Assuming that every little bit in the bible is true, which if you did a little bit of reading on the historical motives behind the bible you might realise that a huge proportion of what is said in it is a lot of crap. BUT assuming it is all true, I honestly cannot believe God would send a person to hell who hasn't even heard of Christianity, People in the Amazon Rain Forrest, Parts of Africa. I mean so they got sent down here without a chance simply because no missionary bothered going there to tell them that The Son of God existed.
I mean common, I PERSONALLY Believe that hell does not exist, and even if you don't have a faith and don't believe in God, even if you murder, hate, kill, rape, you will still go to heaven. I know some of you are like "WTF? Rapists? go to heaven..fuck off" . God gave us one precious gift, and that is FREE WILL, are you saying people who are chemically unbalanced, or psychopaths who feel nothing will go to "Hell" I mean THAT'S THE WAY THEY ARE. God will forgive any man of any deed, for the people who he killed suffer only temporarily and then go up to "The Kingdom of Heaven" ...Personally at the end of the day if your faith makes you a better person and a better individual then that's brilliant, but I'm sorry, Religion has caused more trouble then good in my opinion. Just my 2 cents.

dougnukem

Actually, the Bible onyl refers to people who have heard the word and turn from the word, will only then face judgement. Those folks, like the ones you pointed out, ie:in rain forests and what not, basically don't have the same judgement passed onto them. I'll be right back with the exact scripture, as it's been awhile and my scripture memory is fading.

silencer

ok man, you are obviously a devout christian, which tbh, like I said if that makes you a better person and a better person for others then . But I already stated my opinion. But would you believe in Jesus if the priest who "enlightened" you to Jesus touched you up and abused you, ok this is a small example, but a just one, I sure as hell wouldn't I wouldn't want to share the same faith as a Pedo, surely he should go to hell. If I was a young boy that would be my logical reasoning.

But lets take the normal scenario today, you are a normal person, living in a reasonably civilised society and you are offered a whole array of beliefs and faiths. I think you should pick the faith which will make you a better person, not the faith that says "Hay buddy you were given a shot to pick us, if you don't you can fuck right off" . I would like to think God is a ever forgiving person and a Great God rather then a prick who picks and chooses on 1 bad decision. If everything is true and you go up for "judgement" God/Jesus should forgive you for making the "wrong" choice.

dougnukem

Actually, I'm in the same boat as you as far as being a devout Christian. I was one, once upon a time, but some things changed that. Nowadays, I'm a believer of a higher power, but not sure where I fall into this place.

silencer

Yea, that's me for sure, I'm not even religious anymore (Even though the subject does fascinate me). By no length am I athiest, I truely believe there is a God, with every bone in my body. I'm just not going to take up "religion" like I stated before in my personal opinion it causes more bad then good.

My REAL personal opinion of Jesus though, not the religion christiantiy, is that Jesus did exist and he did not lie about being the son of God. WE ARE ALL THE SON OF GOD. He was just obviously a very spiritual man who was able to inspire people to follow him..

Pepper

You need to re-check the Mod listing.

My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

NeilPearson

Before we have a meaningful discussion of what the bible says hell is we have to know the original word 'Hell' is the noun form of the old Anglo-Saxon verb 'hele' which meant to hide, conceal, or bury something.

The bible most commonly translates SHEOL and HADEES as hell which is appropriate since these words mean the place of the death or the state of being dead or the grave.

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

First of all I see no mention of the words heaven or hell. I see everlasting life and shame and everlasting contempt.

Contempt - The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.
The state of being despised or dishonored; disgrace.
Open disrespect or willful disobedience of the authority of a court of law or legislative body.

I see support that there is punishment, dishonored, disgrace but no mention of pain or hell fire.


Hebrews 9:27 - Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Again no mention of hell, pain or fire... just judgement

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again no mention of heaven or hell... just eternal life or perishing. Perish does not equal fire, pain

Finally something a little meatier...

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

You will notice that the word hell doesn't appear here and the eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels - not people. The eternal fire here is the same one that is mentioned in your other quote -

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

(no mention of people being tormented at all here - just the devil)

and

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You will notice here the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his demons. Also death and Hades (hell) gave up their dead to be judged... wait a second, all the dead are in hell already - before being judged? Of course because hell is just the state of being dead. Then they are brought back to life, judged and then what happens death and Hades (hell) are thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is not hell, otherwise how could hell be thrown into it? The lake of fire was prepared for satan and his demons and then hell, death, satan and non-believers are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed in the second death. There is no mention of them suffering forever.

Matt 13:41 - 50 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sure they are thrown into the fiery furnace to be destroyed along with death and hell. And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as they are being judged and thrown in but it doesn't say that the pain is eternal. In fact the penalty of sin is death. It was for Adam and Eve and it was for everyone else in the bible. It doesn't say the penalty for sin is eternal torture.

Rom 6:23 "…the wages of sin is death…."
Rom 5:12 "…sin entered into the world and death by sin…."
Jas 1:15 "… and sin when it is finished brings forth death…."
Jer 31:30 "But every one shall die for his own sin…."

This is why when Jesus died on the cross it could pay for sin. If the punishment for sin was eternal pain, then Jesus would have to have paid that but he didn't he died.

again furnace of fire and not hell... already addressed.

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

Yay, finally one that uses the word hell and fire in the same passage and ties them together. If you look at the word that was translated to be hell here though it was GEHENNA. GEHENNA was a real place on Earth. They kept fires burning there eternally and it was a place of destruction and death. Corpses were burnt there to destroy them and there were even child sacrifices. This was a place to destroy bodies... not to torture them. Jesus was using GEHENNA as a reference because his disciples understood what GEHENNA was... and it has since been lost in the translation.

more references to the lake of fire and not hell

Jesus went to hell when he died

Acts 2: 27: "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption." Verse 31: "His soul was not left in Hell, neither his flesh did see corruption,"

Job prayed to go to hell to escape the punishment he was faced with on Earth.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

"the grave" here was Sheol in Hebrew... this same word is translated elsewhere as "hell"

Everyone goes there