Mr. Bush, the truth shall set you free....

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

I hear this repeated time and time again, along with the "I guess I'm killing life everytime I scrape dead skin off in the shower.." Unfortunantly for your side, it's completely baseless, and completely inapplicable to the situation.

We're not talking scientific and biological knowledge here - we are talking religious belief. Are we now saying that, when the argument works for "conservative" men, that science and knowledge are valued?

A man is not killing a baby when he ejaculates. His sperm, if left alone, will not grow into anything, unlike a child in the womb. An unborn baby is not a random grouping of cells. It is human life. It is human. Their is no question that it is a human life, if you believe otherwise I will challenge you to tell me what species a "fetus" (helps to dehumanize it, this way it is easier to murder it) is. We were all that "blob of tissue." Life is a continuing process from conception until death.

Right. . .so is a stem cell. So a miscarriage is manslaughter. Gotcha.

What gives you the right to choose who doesn't get the most fundamental right of all, the right to life? Because it doesn't have all of our full-grown characteristics? Because it might not "feel it" or "know it?" Perhaps the government should give less protection to physically and mentally handicapped people since they have less of our common characteristics, thus their life isn't worth as much. Perhaps anyone who is knocked unconscious can be killed, because they won't know what happened.

Don't you think it would be more practical to pass "moral" legislation limiting the male's ability to reproduce instead? That would certainly save a lot of money for both the state and the woman involved. And frankly, while we are on the subject, the government does give less protection to the mentally and physically disadvantaged people - hell, wingnuts are always screaming that the gays are still mentally ill, and can't carry a rifle in the military. . .and until the last ten years murdering one was considered "manslaughter." As for disabled veterans, you ever wonder what American society was like after World War II and up through the 1960's for them? Selling pencils in front of downtown dime stores - locked out of most good jobs. Mental institutions and places for disabled Americans often resembled prisons.

I'm 100% pro-choice. A woman has the right to choose if she has sex or not, and she has the right to choose to use birth control or not (as does the man). The government will not tell her what she can do with her own body, unless it harms others. I'm afraid killing a completely innocent baby, that she imposed upon herself, is not a personal liberty granted by the Constitution. If you disagree, please find the "Right to murder your unborn child," because I just can't seem to find it. Interestingly, I see we are granted the right to life.

Clever, but no cigar. That woman didn't become pregnant without some man irresponsibly unzipping his pants - and it seems that men need to pass legislation governing their own damned behavior (along with some appropriate physical punishment) before they attempt to project "the origination of human life" into an experience that he cannot have and does not affect his own body. The absence of legislation restricting the behavior of the man indicates the interest is only in controlling a woman rather than the pretentious crap about concern for the sanctity of "life." We've killed at least 100,000 live people in Iraq by willful means - no sanctity of life there. And the same group of males who crave a warrior culture then try to tell someone else (and most certainly not themselves) that they must carry to term the baby planted into their 12 year old body by a rapist.
The Constitution does not have to explicitly grant a right to control your own body. . .as men understand that in reference to themselves. Rights that are not assigned by the Constitution do not disappear - they are inherently reserved by a free people. And the government most certainly is telling her what to do with her own body - again, that isn't YOUR experience. You want to talk about having your peepee cut off if you impregnate a woman outside of marriage, and you've got a bargaining chip. But unfortunately, as men who aren't faced with the pregnancy experience, it's a bit arrogant to dictate policy to other citizens without being willing to accept your own. That legislation contains no punishment,no decree for any man.

The religious argument is stupid. You think there are no religious people who are pro-choice? No atheists who are pro-life? It carries no relevance in the discussion whatsoever. I've seen plenty of the pro-choice atheists just as, if not more, zealous in their pursuit of legalized murder. People call pro-lifers zealots for defending the defenseless and call them zealots for valuing life. If you believe an unborn child is a life worth protecting, how could you not be passionate when over a million innocent children are murdered each year out of conveinence?

People commit "murder" all the time without recrimination. Men call them "wars." Children starve to death all over the world after they are born, including here in the United States. I do not consider the fetus a life - it is completely dependent on the mother - not YOU. Is the man maintaining that life? Is the man carrying it around after he rapes a 12 year old and takes the next train out of Dodge? Are those men concerned about the "life" when they unzip their pants? What punishment do they face for creating this "life". . .what burden is on them to take care of it? It's a rather sorry state of affairs when men attempt to pull this "murder" crap and then ignore how many million of them are deadbeat dads who take off without paying one dime and let the children get hauled off to a foster care system in which thousands grow up without a family. Sanctity of life, my ass. . .it's only sanctimonious if it doesn't require a man to take any responsibility.
You might be perfectly comfortable dictating to others how to make decisions about their conditions to meet your standards, but I don't tend to believe in doing that - and I have little patience for those who do unless I see their willingness to go even farther in punishing their own kind. That hasn't materialized yet.
And you aren't pro-choice about anything except your right to regulate the lives of other Americans according to the prevailing superstitious winds.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

The point is it will become "conscious" (as if that is a qualifier for the right to life..).

Your question is an extreme circumstance, and honestly isn't worth answering, since it doesn't apply to the situation.

However, if there is a healthy person, with a long life in front of them, and a terminally ill person who is brain dead, of course the healthy person should live. But this "one or the other" cirumstance isn't the case for 99% of pregnancies. Additionally, does an unborn baby not have a long life in front of them, just as a healthy person? We were all unborn babies at one point, and depriving me of life at 2 weeks after conception is just as bad as depriving me a of life now. If the qualifier for allowing murder is that "They won't know it" then we can kill alot of people, or just drug them and kill them. Do you see the fallacy of that?

Would not a discharge of one million sperm have the potential to create at least a hundred babies and thus is a waste of a potentially created person with a long life in front of it?

brogers · 03-07-2006, 08:34 PM

Impressive you could write so many words with so little substance. Somehow you get off into gays in the military. I see you talking of gays alot, and the "white hetero" dominated legislature, are you gay? It would certainly explain a lot of things.

**Dale Mabry** · 03-07-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Impressive you could write so many words with so little substance. Somehow you get off into gays in the military. I see you talking of gays alot, and the "white hetero" dominated legislature, are you gay? It would certainly explain a lot of things.

Wow, persecute much?

brogers · 03-07-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbm8795

Would not a discharge of one million sperm have the potential to create at least a hundred babies and thus is a waste of a potentially created person with a long life in front of it?

Not even worth arguing with someone of such little intelligence.

1 million sperm down your drain have no potential for life if left alone, a child in the womb, on the other hand..

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

Don't bother brogers. The whole "consciousness" issue is just another way for pro-abortionists to dehumanize a fetus. They're always looking for some other, more benign way, of saying, "I'm going to kill this human because it's not convenient for me to be a parent."

What I find most perplexing is that many pro-abortionists are anti-death penalty. Yeah, let's kill the innocent but spare the murderers.

And this coming from the always compassionate "bomb them into oblivion" dude. . .you have no problem dehumanizing people all the time, but you suddenly have this undying compassion for protecting a dependent fetus . . but of course it's not because you are into controlling others? Is there some reason why you believe that a woman is incapable of making decisions for herself without your control?

Why would you find it perplexing that pro-individual rights people are anti-death penalty? After all, since sometimes the murderers aren't. . .gosh...really murderers because the wingnuts rush to judgement is so absolute, one wonders where "conservatives" get this nonsense about sanctity of life? They certainly don't exact any punishment on themselves, or expect to make the state take any responsibility for making a mistake.

BigDyl · 03-07-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Not even worth arguing with someone of such little intelligence.

1 million sperm down your drain have no potential for life if left alone, a child in the womb, on the other hand..

Intelligence can be meassured in 9 ways.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Not even worth arguing with someone of such little intelligence.

This is, of course, a statement from someone who isn't into dictating the use of another human's body.

1 million sperm down your drain have no potential for life if left alone, a child in the womb, on the other hand..

Planted in the place which God intended, those sperm would indeed produce a human life.

brogers · 03-07-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Wow, persecute much?

Is my question persecution? Have you ever read one of kbm's posts? He just spews hatred against Christians and people who don't agree with his socialist politics (wingnuts, he calls them) non stop. I'm just trying to understand how a person becomes so filled with hate.

**Dale Mabry** · 03-07-2006, 08:45 PM

Your question did not persecute, it lead me to believe that you persecute.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Impressive you could write so many words with so little substance. Somehow you get off into gays in the military. I see you talking of gays alot, and the "white hetero" dominated legislature, are you gay? It would certainly explain a lot of things.

It might be hard to understand, but people aren't always out to impress you. You rather missed the point here - it's about controlling others rather than yourself. You aren't a woman, but you expect women to accede to your decisions about their bodies in much the same way a heterosexual man expects gays to make sacrifices because the straight dude declares he isn't "normal." It was merely an example. The same group of people who claimed that, for example a gay citizens "life" was worth only a charge of manslaughter if he was murdered are the same group of people who used to claim that a woman asked to be raped because she "dressed" for it. . . and the same group of people who claimed that blacks were created to be less intelligent. And then you want to assert that you should be accepted as arbiter and dictator of policy governing all these same supposedly "equal" citizens whose lives are supposedly valued "equally" from the moment of conception in the womb.
What you don't explain is your apparent lack of passion in regards to regulating the sexual releases of men who cause pregnancies...since that would naturally affect YOU.
If you want to talk about the legislature, that's a great place to start. A legislature dominated by heterosexual men who, more than likely, have a few members with their share of mistresses, adulterous relationships, multiple sexual experiences outside and before their marriages which may or may not have resulted in pregnancies. . .men who will never become pregnant or live in fear of being sexually assaulted or raped except their paranoia about being in a military shower with some random gay soldier...are arrogant enough to think their views should be taken seriously on this issue.

While I should be flattered that you take such interest in things I've written about, but you aren't exactly great at putting two-and-two together.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

ACLU: Crusading for death row innmates' right to a painless execution, but supporting drowning babies in saline. Yeah!

Abortion is the thing I hate the most about this world.

Of course you do - because it isn't about YOU and so it must be something you have to control in others. It's so much easier than passing legislation exacting punishment on your own kind.

brogers · 03-07-2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbm8795

Of course you do - because it isn't about YOU and so it must be something you have to control in others. It's so much easier than passing legislation exacting punishment on your own kind.

Ah, well I'm not Jewish either, guess if I lived in the 1930's and 40's I shouldn't have wanted to stop the Holocaust.

You're dead on right, it isn't about me, it's about an innocent, defenseless life, that in my opinion is worth protecting.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Is my question persecution? Have you ever read one of kbm's posts? He just spews hatred against Christians and people who don't agree with his socialist politics (wingnuts, he calls them) non stop. I'm just trying to understand how a person becomes so filled with hate.

Yawn. A wingnut is an extremist, dude. You know, someone who demands the right to control others for no qualified reason other than his skin color, or his gender, or the direction his peepee points, and if all that fails, by dictating a "morality" which favors, not surprisingly, HIS own value and cheapens others. Christians are not the same as "christians" or those faux selective cafeteria believers who hide their hate behind a fear-and-smear bible campaign and toss the verses around like they are incantations on a poorly scripted episode of Charmed.

You ain't gonna understand how anyone becomes so filled with hate until you can take a real good, long look in the mirror.

kbm8795 · 03-07-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

Ah, well I'm not Jewish either, guess if I lived in the 1930's and 40's I shouldn't have wanted to stop the Holocaust.

You'd be likely promoting the Holocaust as necessary social control over criminality which you would help invent.

You're dead on right, it isn't about me, it's about an innocent, defenseless life, that in my opinion is worth protecting.

The only life people like you ever really pay any attention to is your own. Anything involving others has always been about controlling them.

lnvanry · 03-07-2006, 10:23 PM

KBM who do you write for....or are you one of those professional students

03-07-2006, 08:34 PM	#93
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,300	Impressive you could write so many words with so little substance. Somehow you get off into gays in the military. I see you talking of gays alot, and the "white hetero" dominated legislature, are you gay? It would certainly explain a lot of things.
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,300

03-07-2006, 08:45 PM	#100
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,844 Photos: 10	Your question did not persecute, it lead me to believe that you persecute.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

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03-07-2006, 10:23 PM	#106
lnvanry primeau Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix Posts: 3,044 Photos: 12	KBM who do you write for....or are you one of those professional students