Decker

Forget the fact that the Bush administration is destroying laws honored for decades just to protect themselves from War Crime charges. Bush’s new torture law has now cleared the House and is headed for the US Senate. Do not let the US become like its enemies, like Nazis, as a STATE that uses torture tactics.

Do you want BIG GOVERNMENT to have the right to torture at its whim?

This bill is not a national security issue. It's about torturing people not convicted of any crime. It's about insulating corrupt politicians from prosecution for War Crimes.

Please go to this web site and think about it. http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/site/c.goJTI0OvElH/b.2070005/k.BBAA/National_Callin_Week_for_the_America_We_Believe_In/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?c=goJTI0OvElH&b=2070005&en=ggKHKOOvE 6LEKROzEaKKK6OEL8LFJQNxHbLQL9PQE

Follow this Link to see the torture tactics that Bush & Co. have permitted, if not endorsed, so far. http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqtortures.html#TORTURES

Oh, that’s right, those were only ‘loose cannons’ doing the torturing. Don’t pay no mind to Atty. Gen. Gonzales’ Memo about torture tactics available to a “war time president” fighting a “new kind of war.”
http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/files/gonzales_memo_on_gen_conv_january_25_2002_pt_1.pdf (actual memo)

Note the date—January 25, 2002
Thanks for your time.

Witmaster

You need more scotch

NEVER write a check with your mouth that you can't cash with your ASS!!

I can run faster mad than you can scared

"All right brain... I don't like you and you don't like me. So let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer" ~ Homer Simpson

Decker

Bad news my friend. I have to quit drinking for a while. My triglyceride level is through the roof. So give me a nod the next time you imbibe.

I'm very serious about this torture deal. I have a visceral reaction unlike those for unfair tax cuts, illegal spying or the like.

This topic means something.

DOMS

I'm okay with that. So long as it's not a US citizen.

This isn't a school yard fight. This is an international war to the death. Or at least, that's the way the Muslims are playing it. So I say give what you get.

Decker

I understand that. But I think something must be said for what is noble. This goes to the heart of what character and morality is all about.

It's what separates the good guys from the bad guys. Otherwise the whole of it devolves into nothing more than jungle/predatory existence.

And a US citizen has already been steamrolled by the Bush torture machine. It's irrefutable that his constitutional rights as an american have been violated. He claims he was tortured also.

I also think that this isn't an international war but a criminal conspiracy that should be treated as such.

Just b/c Bush has given the color of war to battling terrorists via illegal invasion, doesn't mean it is war.

largepkg

Give it a break already. We're in a fucking war! Whether you deem it right or wrong, we're in it. You're one of these people that would rather stand by principle knowing what your final outcome would be then to fight fire with fire, right? The morality may be wrong but if it's the only solution I'm OK with it.

PS. Please don't give me a long winded alternate solution. My brain can handle only so much.

DOMS

The way of things is a lot more simplistic (or should be) than your saying it is. Treat your people and your friends/allies well. Kill the enemy.

Just think, how much quicker would this war be over if we simply tortured all captured enemies to get the information we need to move on to the next target and reach our ultimate goal?

I'm not listening to Bush's definitions, I'm listening to all the Muslims shouting "Death to America!" and saying that our death is the only workable solution.

Witmaster

Oh I concur with your anti-torture sentiments. This sort of reprehensible conduct is in no way how God intended us to live.

Your sources site some very fascinating cases and examples. Strange that CNN isn't broadcasting this stuff in Hi-Def.

My main reservation about your source is the complete and unabashed anti-republican and (especially) anti-military message that is so prevalent throughout its content. Hell, they've even got an entire page (entitled:” Do Enlist") whose sole purpose is to portray all members of the military as a bunch of mindless child-molesting murderous thugs! (Great stuff!) Trust me... if you want to compel military servicemen and women to embrace your message you might consider recognizing the full scope of the military's role in the war on terrorists. Despite this websites best efforts to castigate the integrity of the Armed forces in a deluge of "shock stories" there is still the undeniable fact that somewhere in Iraq there are GI's feeding the hungry, treating the wounded, protecting the innocent and building schools and hospitals for the citizens of that nation.

I'm sorry my friend, but to paint me and my comrades-in-arms as a bunch of blood-thirsty murderous barbarians is simply not the way to compel me to embrace your interpretation of what's really happening over there. ESPECIALLY when it looks like I'll be seeing that region again next May.

Now... Putting aside my obvious military biases I will say that it does concern me to see a bill passing that gives us complete latitude to imprison suspects and then NOT allowing them Habeas Corpus. This particular focus can very well be applied against ANYONE whom the government feels may be a “suspect”. Even you and me. It kind of has the eerie feel of an old Orson Wells movie.

Sorry to hear about your triglyceride level being up so high. That's no way to be.

NEVER write a check with your mouth that you can't cash with your ASS!!

I can run faster mad than you can scared

"All right brain... I don't like you and you don't like me. So let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer" ~ Homer Simpson

BigDyl

True Story, we're in a war so that means we can give our liberty up and torture people.

Total ownage.

Decker

I'm not painting you as anything reprehensible. I think you are an honorable man. But that website is pointing to findings already exposed: Seymour Hersh has done some of the most penetrating work on torture done by or associated with the US including the murders by hypothermia, beatings, induced heart failures etc. Here's an MSNBC story on some of it: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989481/#storyContinued


We have statistics of dozens and dozens of deaths without official cause at these overseas American concentration camps. Hersh has been dead on with his other investigative work. Most of the links in the website cataloging the crimes still work for any further validation. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Do not forget the "ghost prisoners" which never officially enter or exit the prisons. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...209681,00.html
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An Iraqi prisoner who died in November while under interrogation by a CIA officer and contract translator arrived at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison with broken ribs and breathing difficulties after his arrest by Navy SEALs, U.S. officials said Thursday.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...raq.abuse.cia/


Some pics from abu Grhaib: http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=8560

Much of the evidence is still being sat on but I agree with you about the basic tenor of the US becoming a torturing State.

Sorry for the disjointed response...these interruptions at work are insufferable.

Decker

Technically no we are not at war. Congress never declared war.

As a matter of rational analysis we are not at war. Terrorism is a tactic and war cannot be declared on a tactic...unless one falls for the rhetorical nonsense of war on drugs, cancer, poverty, homelessness and terrorism.

Fine. Principles be damned as well as morality, ethics and any other indicia of civilization.

So your solution is to fight terrorism with terrorism. Your too late. In the Police Squad tv show, Frank Drebin is confronted w/ a crook holding a woman hostage, he says two can play at that game and he, the police man, grabs a hostage also.

That's a comedy. Much like your 'fight fire with fire' contention.

Look if you believe that this is a 'new war' requiring 'new tactics' like torture, rape, child molestation, necrophilia....hell, I don't know, where does your slippery slope end?

Decker

Your arguments are predicated on the following (false) assumptions:

1. We know we are torturing only terrorists

2. Torture is a viable method for getting reliable information.

If anyone can prove true both of the above statements, then I will take your pro-torture arguments more seriously.

Until then, it sounds only like frightened macho posturing.

largepkg

Why you got to knock necrophilia?

Witmaster

NEVER write a check with your mouth that you can't cash with your ASS!!

I can run faster mad than you can scared

"All right brain... I don't like you and you don't like me. So let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer" ~ Homer Simpson

DOMS

1. Any endeavor involving a large number of people with have a accuracy rate of less than 100%. This doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. If that were the case, then we should do away with prisons and laws, because I guarantee you, innocents are been prosecuted.

2. Torture is a reliable method for getting information. It's not 100%, but neither are wire taps or microphones.

There's nothing macho about it. They're trying to kill us by whatever means they can, and we should do the same.

Decker

My god man listen to yourself. The US constitution has an 8th Amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment. Why? Why aren't criminals in this country tortured? It has nothing to do with 100% accuracy b/c as the cliche goes 'it's not a perfect system but it's the best we got.' Innocents go to jail for punishment as well as the guilty. It happens. They are not tortured b/c:
a. the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you)
b. torture puts too much power into governmental hands
c. torture dehumanizes the torturer--slippery slope, why not just rape the accused's children in front of them...I'm sure they'd talk then.
d. torture decimates national character. Like it or not the population as whole is a repository for commonly held morality. Torture by the government means torture in other places--the school, the workplace, the bedroom (Only not if one is into that sort of thing).

So for No. 1 you argue the benefit (information or revenge) outweighs the burden--see a-d. I disagree.

For No. 2...torture is nothing like wiretapping or eavesdropping--those are things are observational and glean facts from unwitting people. Torture is participatory. It elicits stories by use of pain, degradation etc. The standard objection to your assertion is, people will say anything when there's a redhot poker up their ass. We should get the definitive response from Topolo on that one.

Witmaster

I think we should assemble an army of demonstrators to go over there with "free hugs" signs. That should solve our problems.

NEVER write a check with your mouth that you can't cash with your ASS!!

I can run faster mad than you can scared

"All right brain... I don't like you and you don't like me. So let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer" ~ Homer Simpson

Decker

Maybe. I bet that's what a liberal would say.

But I do know that superior police work in foiling terror conspiracies is the best way to proceed. The use of military power is not applicable and not effective for battling terrorism. Military might used to battle terrorism just ends up exacerbating the problem--just look at Iraq. We seemed to have learned shit from Viet Nam too.

largepkg

DOMS

Apparently, I was unclear on a point: I don't advocate torturing of US citizens.

a. Yes, the Golden Rule. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they have tortured our people. No?
b. So long as it can't be used on American citizens, no.
c. So make it a voluntary position. Oh, and the same argument can be made for soldiers. So then, we'll get ride of that position too.
d. Again, I only advocate torture on non-US citizens.

You can disagree, but that makes my position no less right.

I was referring to accuracy. Just because someone says it, doesn't mean it's a fact. Whether said under duress or not.

DOMS

I'm not a linguist, but I'm pretty sure that the English phrase "Free hug" translates into Arabic "Convenient hostage."