10 myths about school shootings

**min0 lee** · 10-16-2006, 08:23 PM

Source

Myth No. 1. "He didn't fit the profile."
In fact, there is no profile. "There is no accurate or useful ‘profile' of students who engaged in targeted school violence," the researchers found.
The stereotypes of teens in Goth makeup or other types of dress are not useful in preventing attacks. Just as in other areas of security -- workplace violence, airplane hijacking, even presidential assassination -- too many innocent students will fit any profile you can come up with, and too many attackers will not.
"The demographic, personality, school history, and social characteristics of the attackers varied substantially," the report said. Attackers were of all races and family situations, with academic achievement ranging from failing to excellent.
Most, but not all, have been male, though that fact alone doesn't help an adult rule in or out someone as dangerous.
Myth No. 2. "He just snapped."
Rarely were incidents of school violence sudden, impulsive acts. Attackers do not "just snap," but progress from forming an idea, to planning an attack, to gathering weapons. This process can happen quickly, but sometimes the planning or gathering weapons are discoverable.
Myth No. 3. "No one knew."
Before most of the attacks, someone else knew about the idea or the plan. "In most cases, those who knew were other kids: friends, schoolmates, siblings and others. However, this information rarely made its way to an adult." Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused concern or indicated a need for help.
Myth No. 4. "He hadn't threatened anyone."
Too much emphasis is placed on threats. Most attackers did not threaten, and most threateners did not attack. A child who talks of bringing a gun to school, or seeking revenge on teachers or classmates, poses a threat, whether or not a threat is made
Myth No. 5. "He was a loner."
In many cases, students were considered in the mainstream of the student population and were active in sports, school clubs or other activities.
Only one-quarter of the students hung out with a group of students considered to be part of a "fringe group."
Myth No. 6. "He was crazy."
Only one-third of the attackers had ever been seen by a mental health professional, and only one-fifth had been diagnosed with a mental disorder. Substance abuse problems were also not prevalent. "However, most attackers showed some history of suicidal attempts or thoughts, or a history of feeling extreme depression or desperation." Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures.
Myth No. 7. "If only we'd had a SWAT team or metal detectors."
Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were over well before a SWAT team could have arrived. Metal detectors have not deterred students who were committed to killing themselves and others.
Myth No. 8. "He'd never touched a gun."
Most attackers had access to weapons, and had used them prior to the attack. Most of the attackers acquired their guns from home.
Myth No. 9. "We did everything we could to help him."
"Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack," and said they had tried without success to get someone to intervene. Administrators and teachers were targeted in more than half the incidents.
Myth No. 10. "School violence is rampant."
It may seem so, with media attention focused on a spate of school shootings. In fact, school shootings are extremely rare. Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the US. In general, school assaults and other violence have dropped by nearly half in the past decade

**clemson357** · 10-16-2006, 09:27 PM

Myth No. 11 - Gun free schools zones accomplish anything
Gun free school zones do nothing more than make convenient victims, and assure attackers that they will meet no resistance.

**min0 lee** · 10-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Then the thugs would also have guns.....

**The Monkey Man** · 10-16-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Then the thugs would also have guns.....

There was a story last year in Detroit where Gangbangers...
(or two "unitentified" men, in an "unidentified" car)
...shot a lunatic, who attempted to kill an old lady with a garden rake
and attacked several neighbors who tried to stop his assault on the senior...

The gunmen were never found -

(Funny, since it happened in broad daylight,
and the whole neighborhood was obviously
aready outside, trying to help the old woman)

**clemson357** · 10-17-2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Then the thugs would also have guns.....

In 49 states the right of individuals to carry weapons in public places is either completely restricted or licensed. By definition then, in every state but Vermont, a "gun free school zone" only effects people who are licensed by the state to carry and in most states have as much or more training and experience than your average police officer.

So in other words, if by "thugs" you meant "responsible adults without a felony conviction or drug conviction or domestic violence conviction who have completed a training course and been licensed by the state to carry concealed firearms in churches, malls, grocery stores, parks, etc;" if thats what you meant to say then you are correct.

**DOMS** · 10-17-2006, 01:21 PM

Myth No. 12. "Getting shot is cool."
In fact, getting shot can really screw with your personal schedule. Yeah, Hollywood makes it look cool to get shot. With all the flipping and slow-motion and stuff, but, I mean, like, you can't go out on a mini-golf date if you're bleeding everywhere. Not only that, but you could just ruin a good outfit. And how cool would that be?

**TJ Cline** · 10-17-2006, 01:24 PM

Simple solution, by 14 if you are a loser in school like kenwood, fail every class and just beat on the geeks......time to go to the military. I'm sick of these scum having to be in school till 16, ship them out once they go bad and let the good kids excel.

**clemson357** · 10-17-2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

you can't go out on a mini-golf date if you're bleeding everywhere.

that is a matter of opinion.

**min0 lee** · 10-17-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by clemson357

In 49 states the right of individuals to carry weapons in public places is either completely restricted or licensed. By definition then, in every state but Vermont, a "gun free school zone" only effects people who are licensed by the state to carry and in most states have as much or more training and experience than your average police officer.

So in other words, if by "thugs" you meant "responsible adults without a felony conviction or drug conviction or domestic violence conviction who have completed a training course and been licensed by the state to carry concealed firearms in churches, malls, grocery stores, parks, etc;" if thats what you meant to say then you are correct.

**clemson357** · 10-17-2006, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

What is that supposed to mean? you have no response? or do you think I am wrong on the facts? can you just not think of anything to say?

It never ceases to amaze me how all logic and reasoning goes out the window the minute the word "gun" comes into the discussion. Is it really that hard to believe that criminals prefer disarmed victims? Or do you think that they are actually honorable citizens who would prefer the challenge of some resistance?

**god hand** · 10-17-2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Source

Where is the "He is white"

**viet_jon** · 10-17-2006, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by god hand

Where is the "He is white"

good point!!!

**DOMS** · 10-17-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by viet_jon

good point!!!

Only the white shooters are note-worthy.

**viet_jon** · 10-17-2006, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by DOMS

Only the white shooters are note-worthy.

some statistics would be interesting!!!

**min0 lee** · 10-17-2006, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by clemson357

What is that supposed to mean? you have no response? or do you think I am wrong on the facts? can you just not think of anything to say?

You made your point but the roll of the eyes just reminds me of a little brat.

It never ceases to amaze me how all logic and reasoning goes out the window the minute the word "gun" comes into the discussion. Is it really that hard to believe that criminals prefer disarmed victims? Or do you think that they are actually honorable citizens who would prefer the challenge of some resistance?

I don't trust anyone with a gun, I wouldn't trust you.

Unfortunatly I think the more guns honorable citizens obtain the easier it would be for the thugs to get them.

**clemson357** · 10-18-2006, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Unfortunatly I think the more guns honorable citizens obtain the easier it would be for the thugs to get them.

It is easy for criminals to get guns, and it always will be. Instead of passing irrational laws that put the blame on inanimate objects or penalize law abiding citizens, perhaps we should try to focus on the people committing the crimes. How about a minimum 10 year sentence for anyone who provides guns to criminals, and a minimum 20 year sentence for a crime committed with a gun.

**min0 lee** · 10-18-2006, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by clemson357

It is easy for criminals to get guns, and it always will be. Instead of passing irrational laws that put the blame on inanimate objects or penalize law abiding citizens, perhaps we should try to focus on the people committing the crimes. How about a minimum 10 year sentence for anyone who provides guns to criminals, and a minimum 20 year sentence for a crime committed with a gun.

That would make a whole lot of sense.
What is the punishment for selling arms to criminals anyway?

**maniclion** · 10-18-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by clemson357

IHow about a minimum 10 year sentence for anyone who provides guns to criminals, and a minimum 20 year sentence for a crime committed with a gun.

Yeah right, and then double the time for possession of weed...I mean, you get caught with an illegal gun it's nothing you get caught with a bag of weed that weighs the same as that gun and you are done for...yet you put that weed in your mouth and fire it up you'll be mellow, you put that gun in your mouth and fire it you'll be very mellow...

**clemson357** · 10-18-2006, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

What is the punishment for selling arms to criminals anyway?

It varies by state.

I know in Florida we have 10-20-Life. Use a firearm in the commission of a crime, minimum 10 years. Fire the gun, minimum 20. Shoot someone, whether they die or not, minimum life.

It would suit me just fine if it was 20-40-life

**Will Brink** · 11-02-2006, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by clemson357

What is that supposed to mean? you have no response? or do you think I am wrong on the facts? can you just not think of anything to say?

It never ceases to amaze me how all logic and reasoning goes out the window the minute the word "gun" comes into the discussion. Is it really that hard to believe that criminals prefer disarmed victims? Or do you think that they are actually honorable citizens who would prefer the challenge of some resistance?

Ever hear of a random shooting at a gun show? Me either....

**Will Brink** · 11-02-2006, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I don't trust anyone with a gun, I wouldn't trust you.

Unfortunatly I think the more guns honorable citizens obtain the easier it would be for the thugs to get them.

Simply untrue and irrelevant. Cars are intended for driving to work, yet kill 40,000 per year. Pools and bikes-designed for biking and swimming respectively-kill more kids per year then guns. What guns are USED for is what’s relevant. There are negative and positive uses for guns.

A negative use of a gun is when a person commits a crime using a gun to commit it. That person is what is known as a criminal and all legal and or physical punishment should be applied to said person.

The positive use of a gun would be to prevent a crime or save a life, such as the 120lb women who shoots the 210 rapist, the 80 year old man who prevents the burglar from coming into his home and doing him harm, or the shop owner who protects his life work from looters after a storm, and so on

In that context, the ONLY relevant question is, what is the ratio of good to bad uses of guns? Between 700,000 (FBI’s data) and 2.5 million (Klecks data) times per year a gun is used in the in the US. in the positive sense Guns are used approximately 5 times more often to prevent a crime/save a life then they are to commit a crime.

So why not just remove all guns from the hands of citizens to reduce crime (which is not even possible nor constitutional but mentioned here for the sake of argument) which should lower crime? On a much larger historical picture, history has shown us over and over and over what happens to a population that is disarmed by it’s own government: they become subjects, slaves, or dead. Hitler knew that all too well when he said:

“History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." --- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942.

Thus, why the Second Amend exists and reveals a universal truth: the right to self defense - be it from criminals or a tyrannical government - is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT no government can grant or take away.

Guns are a necessary evil but necessary to a democracy and that fact was recognized by men far smarter then we are. For example;

"A FREE people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.

And:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws
make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides,
for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment - (1764).

And a more recent opinion:

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --George Orwell

This is no less true today then it was then, perhaps even more relevant today then it was then some have argued.

Use your logical mind, do some research, leave what you think you know of the topic behind, and you will be shocked at what you find.

**ALBOB** · 11-02-2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Then the thugs would also have guns.....

Uh, excuse me, the thugs ALREADY have guns. What do you think they're using for the school shootings, rubber bands? .

**ALBOB** · 11-02-2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I don't trust anyone with a gun, I wouldn't trust you.

Unfortunatly I think the more guns honorable citizens obtain the easier it would be for the thugs to get them.

That's a purely irrational fear on your part which is not substantiated by facts.

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by ALBOB

Uh, excuse me, the thugs ALREADY have guns. What do you think they're using for the school shootings, rubber bands? .

So then I should get a gun to defend myself from them? I don't even trust myself with one.

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by ALBOB

That's a purely irrational fear on your part which is not substantiated by facts.

There are times I pass by projects and those kids use guns like they were BB guns.

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:22 PM

It's easier for a thug to get a gun than it is for me to obtain a gun license.

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:32 PM

I am leaving this conversation since I really not interested in it.

It's just that living in this big city you rarely hear anything positive about guns, Nothing at all.

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:35 PM

I'm back.

Guns and crime in the United States
compiled by GunSAFE (www.gunsafe.org)

(Gunsafe: Connecticut residents committed to the preservation of the Second Amendment and the right of self-defense.)

Sources of information are shown in brackets. Large figures have been rounded for simplicity.

Firearms ownership

United States population...273,000,000
[U.S. Census Bureau]

Firearms (handguns, rifles, and shotguns) owned by civilians...235,000,000
[Industry and other estimates]
How much has this increased in the past 40 years?...tripled
[Combination of sources cited by Kleck in Targeting Guns (1997)]

What fraction of U.S. households owns firearms?...42%
What fraction of U.S. residents owns firearms?...28%
[Davis and Smith, General Social Surveys, 1972-1993, all figures]

Accidental, suicide, and homicide deaths by firearm

Total accidental deaths per year (all causes), U.S....96,000
Motor vehicle accidental deaths per year...43,000
Fatal firearms accidents per year...1,100

(The firearms accidents figure is an all-time low, even though the U.S. population is at an all-time high, and gun ownership is at an all-time high.)

Fatal firearms accidents age 0-5...17

Fatal firearms accidents age 5-14...121

Fatal firearms accidents age 15-24...401

Fraction of all Emergency Room visits that involve firearms accidents...0.2%

[Centers for Disease Control, all figures]

Accidents of all kinds (not just firearms) constitute the fifth leading cause of death in the United States, but the other four leading causes combined account for 16 times as many deaths as accidents. Accidents constitute a relatively small but easily prevented cause of death.

Suicides by firearm, per year...18.000
Murders by firearm, per year...14,000

[Centers for Disease Control, both figures]

Researchers have studied the figures on firearms ownership, firearms accidents, suicides, and murders, during the period from 1959 to the present. Purpose: To find out whether accidents, suicides, or murders by firearm increase or decrease as the supply of firearms increases or decreases. Result: The rates of accidents and murders by firearms do not show any relationship to the number of guns owned by civilians. The gun supply has increased and decreased without affecting the accident or murder rates. Suicides by firearms have increased when more guns have been available, but the total suicide rate hasn’t changed; when guns are less available, people find other ways to commit suicide.

Positive side of civilian firearms ownership

Defensive gun uses (DGUs) by civilians, per year...2,500,000 to 3,500,000

Fraction of DGUs in which no shot is fired...92%

In most DGUs, a firearm is merely displayed by the intended victim, and the criminal flees. No one is injured. Civilian gun ownership clearly gives the edge to the law-abiding defender, because in 82 percent of DGU situations, the criminal has no gun.

[Combination of sources cited by Kleck in Targeting Guns (1997), all figures]

Crimes committed with guns, per year...1,000,000

About three times as many DGUs occur per year.

[Combination of sources cited by Kleck in Targeting Guns (1997)]

What can be done about guns and violent crime?

Taking all guns away from the entire U.S. population would be:

Unconstitutional under the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and under many state constitutions

Unfeasible (too many guns owned by too many people; guns are easily hidden or smuggled; guns last a very long time)

Politically impossible (almost half the households own guns)

Futile (crime rates don’t show correlation to the gun supply)
The practical answer is to try to keep guns away from criminals and children.

Instant background check at gun dealer for all gun sales

Permit to carry handgun (background check and safety course required) outside home or place of business

Instant background check for private sales of guns (between friends, neighbors, etc.)

Laws requiring guns be stored inaccessible to children
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[/LEFT]

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:36 PM

What doesn’t work?

- Ban certain types of guns (e.g., "assault weapons")

Doesn't work, because:

[/font]

"Assault weapons" are about 1 percent of the guns used in crime

Criminals want the same guns as law-abiding people—handguns that are small, concealable, reliable, and affordable

Criminals use whatever guns are available; if one type is banned, criminals will switch to whatever they can get

- Ban inexpensive handguns

Doesn't work, because:

Criminals prefer reliable, middle-priced guns; 80 percent of the handguns used in crime do NOT fall under the government definition of "Saturday night special" [BATF definition of "Saturday Night Special"; statistic from Kleck's Targeting Guns]

Criminals use whatever guns are available; if one type is banned, criminals switch to whatever they can get

This type of ban merely keeps poor people from buying guns for self protection

This type of ban dates to the post-Civil War "Black Codes," laws intended to keep blacks down after they were freed from slavery

- "Smart" guns

Doesn't work, because:

If computer inside gun mechanism "crashes," gun may not work when needed; for this reason police don’t want "smart" guns

[left]"Smart" gun is likely to tempt owner to leave gun accessible to children on the assumption that the internal computer is foolproof and will prevent children from firing gun; "smart" gun is not a substitute for standard safety practices (like safe storage)

**min0 lee** · 11-02-2006, 05:36 PM

- Suing gun manufacturers

Doesn't work, because:

Increases in gun supply don’t cause increases in crime

Lawsuits ask courts to ban products that are made legally under laws passed by Congress and state legislatures

Lawsuits ask courts to blame manufacturers for behavior of criminals who misuse the products

If gun lawsuits succeed, the next targets may be producers of cars, prescription drugs, alcoholic beverages, and red meat; all these products may be misused by a few but are actually used correctly and safely by millions of people every day

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