Thread: Sudden moral dilemmas

I believe it starts with how you were brought up, what were your influences and now, as a man, who and what kind of man you are.


Not a dilema. You did what you did, because you are a good person.

Good question. There is a processing center in the forebrain that constantly provides feedback analysis for decisions. We may these cost/benefit decisions daily. Should we exercise, should we eat, what to eat..assessments of various duties and responsibilities and the consequences of our actions. These include moral and ethical decision points. In your case, you probably used an empathetic situation (what if it were me losing my ...glasses, wallet, keys, notebooks, whatever..I would want someone to return it!). Same thing is true when we decide to use drugs, to make an aggressive or dominating action (bullying or controlling behaviors), or to break small civil laws.

This decision loop is also tied to 'feel good' hormones. They reinforce known positive behaviors. When we are burned out from unrelieved chronic stress, from poor diet, sedentary lifestyle and a lack of adequate rest or sleep, this feedback loops (dopamine dominant) maybe depleted. This drains us of motivation and action corrections. This neurochemical condition can worsen to a downward spiral into depression that is also characterized by depleted serotonin and dopamine activity in the brain. The result maybe an overactive HPA center, excitotoxicity, and overactivity of norepinephrine and adrenaline (epinephrine) - classic social anxiety neuorses.

That decision matrix center in your brain? Its formed by early training (model behavior mimicry) established by about age 8-10 and reinforced by experience in later years, during adolescence and young adulthood.

Studies of the neurochemistry of repeat offender criminals aptly demonstrate that these decision centers can be damaged by lifestyle, mostly by chronic drug use.

Does this make sense?

It's harder to hurt someone when you know or see them. This includes theft.


IMHO ofcourse.

Gee whiz Trouble, you take all the fun out of responding to these situations. Smarty pants.

It feels good to do the right thing P, doesn't it?

Did you get her Phone number?

Originally Posted by Trouble

Good question. There is a processing center in the forebrain that constantly provides feedback analysis for decisions. We may these cost/benefit decisions daily. Should we exercise, should we eat, what to eat..assessments of various duties and responsibilities and the consequences of our actions. These include moral and ethical decision points. In your case, you probably used an empathetic situation (what if it were me losing my ...glasses, wallet, keys, notebooks, whatever..I would want someone to return it!). Same thing is true when we decide to use drugs, to make an aggressive or dominating action (bullying or controlling behaviors), or to break small civil laws.

This decision loop is also tied to 'feel good' hormones. They reinforce known positive behaviors. When we are burned out from unrelieved chronic stress, from poor diet, sedentary lifestyle and a lack of adequate rest or sleep, this feedback loops (dopamine dominant) maybe depleted. This drains us of motivation and action corrections. This neurochemical condition can worsen to a downward spiral into depression that is also characterized by depleted serotonin and dopamine activity in the brain. The result maybe an overactive HPA center, excitotoxicity, and overactivity of norepinephrine and adrenaline (epinephrine) - classic social anxiety neuorses.

That decision matrix center in your brain? Its formed by early training (model behavior mimicry) established by about age 8-10 and reinforced by experience in later years, during adolescence and young adulthood.

Studies of the neurochemistry of repeat offender criminals aptly demonstrate that these decision centers can be damaged by lifestyle, mostly by chronic drug use.

Does this make sense?

sheesh...I try and give a nice and simple: Aww shucks, kind of answer..and you had to go and get all scinetifical about it...

I've been in a couple situations like that throughout the course of my life. Most of the time it's dollar bills and i do recall one time when an old lady dropped a $100 dollar bill next to me on a bench at a mall while i was waiting for my sister to finish shopping and she suddenly took off without knowing she had dropped it.

I looked around and nobody was paying attention or had witnessed the incident so i picked it up and thought long and hard about what i should do and well ... i ran after her and gave it back. All i got was a "thanks" but damn, that was a lot of money.

You did the right thing. I would hate to lose something expensive like that. Then all the wasted time and stress to go searching for it, agh!

Ive been in a couple situations like that, this guy left one of his irons that was extremely expensive and I had to run 3 or 4 holes to catch up to him and all I got was "I must of forgot it" not even a thanks.

Yesterday a guy dropped a dollar and I spent it on Powerball, I didnt win, must be karma

I hate people who don't thank.

Like those people that you hold the door for and they don't say anything, some don't even make eye contact as if they expect you to hold the door for their superior ass.

That was the whole point of my 'scientifical' explanation. So that you would understand that there is important benefit for yourself when you do that little good deed.

You have to learn not to care if they meet your eye, nod and say thanks or not.

Thats not the reward here. The reward is internal, within you.

Thats why its been a working social doctrine that dates back before Christianity. Its best exemplified in the teachings of Christ, Mohammed, Buddha and within The Tao.

There is reason for this practice. Its nice to know why.

Well, the thank you says something about you as a person. It's not that I'm bothered by not hearing it, I'm bothered by the sense of entitlement they exude.

And your scientific explanation was definitely interesting, what's your occupation? I still stand by my first post though. Brain processes or not, I still think the chances of him taking it if he hadn't seen the actual person would be a lot higher, but I've never met the guy.

Originally Posted by goandykid

Well, the thank you says something about you as a person. It's not that I'm bothered by not hearing it, I'm bothered by the sense of entitlement they exude.

And your scientific explanation was definitely interesting, what's your occupation? I still stand by my first post though. Brain processes or not, I still think the chances of him taking it if he hadn't seen the actual person would be a lot higher, but I've never met the guy.

well an explanation to that would be that if you find an ipod laying on the street you can't really return it to anybody so you might as well just take it i've found money on the street before and picked it up and kept it. what else are you expected to do with it?

anyway, you did the right thing and should be proud because there are a lot of people out there that would just keep, hell i know friends who 'find' jackets and such in clubs left laying around, who then sell them or keep them for themselves.

i've been in a situation similar to yours' and others' a couple of times. the two most recent times involved incorrect change which worked in my favor. one time i gave a guy a $10 for a beer and he gave me $15 back, i promptly returned the $10 and he gave me the next round on the house. another time i was buying $75 shoes for work and had $100 in 5, $20 bills. i took out all five but only handed the guy four of them. he gave me 25 bucks back in change, so i checked my pocket to find that i had that extra 20 and told the guy that he gave me too much money, he was very happy i did that and apologized. all i said in response was, "hell it wouldn't be bad for me, no apology necessary." nevertheless the guy was greatful cause that 20 would've probably come out of his pocket at the end of the day when he cashed out.

Trouble's posts never cease to amaze me

Originally Posted by Yanick

well an explanation to that would be that if you find an ipod laying on the street you can't really return it to anybody so you might as well just take it i've found money on the street before and picked it up and kept it. what else are you expected to do with it?

Doesn't take a lot of work to check the general surrounding area if it's someone's. Also, Apple has a service where for a couple bucks it inscribes the name on the back of the iPod. It's all to a degree though, you could jsut keep the parallels coming.

Just because a car's unlocked doesn't mean you can't find out who's it is and should steal it.

Originally Posted by Yanick

i've been in a situation similar to yours' and others' a couple of times. the two most recent times involved incorrect change which worked in my favor. one time i gave a guy a $10 for a beer and he gave me $15 back, i promptly returned the $10 and he gave me the next round on the house. another time i was buying $75 shoes for work and had $100 in 5, $20 bills. i took out all five but only handed the guy four of them. he gave me 25 bucks back in change, so i checked my pocket to find that i had that extra 20 and told the guy that he gave me too much money, he was very happy i did that and apologized. all i said in response was, "hell it wouldn't be bad for me, no apology necessary." nevertheless the guy was greatful cause that 20 would've probably come out of his pocket at the end of the day when he cashed out.

Trouble's posts never cease to amaze me

If you had kept the $15, you'd have had 3 free drinks...

I would have offered her the iPod back for a beer.

Mmmm...beer.


Good for you, ponyboy. I would have done the same thing. I was in a store a couple weeks ago and an older guy (60's) pulled something out of his back pocket and money fell out. He was oblivious and he turned and left. I picked up the money and went after him. He appreciated it. It was probaby 30 bucks or so.

. Brain processes or not, I still think the chances of him taking it if he hadn't seen the actual person would be a lot higher

Yes, agreed. When you have the association established between a particular person and an action that constitutes a moral dilemma, you bet, there is more likelihood of a positive outcome than not.

Even if they don't thank you, you automatically note the body language and facial expression that shows gratitude and thankfulness. The words add to it. Most, but not all, will respond affirmatively. Often effusively, because they no idea of the pending loss.

Much better feedback if you see the person, rather than say, give it to an authority. I have had authorities that reported back to me (store managers, cops) that the recipient was grateful. Its somewhat anonymous, but still has a positive feedback effect.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Had an interesting situation tonight.

I've been looking to get an Ipod for a while now but haven't been able to justify the expense. Maybe if I have enough xmas money I'll spring for it. Anyway, tonight I'm walking to class and a girl walking in the other direction is pulling something out of her bag and her Ipod Nano fell to the ground. She kept walking, totally oblivious she dropped it and nobody else was around.

Without thinking of course I grabbed it and ran after her to give it back. But after I did I suddenly thought wow - could have been a free Ipod if I had just grabbed it and kept walking in the other direction. Good karma for me I guess but it made me realize that probably quite often we deal with sudden moral dilemmas - and what part of us makes us react in either a positive way or in a negative way?

You can't fool me...
Your first thought wasn't anything to do with
the Nano... You were eyeing some hot girl walking down the hall,
and when she dropped her Ipod, you swooped in to get her phone number

Originally Posted by ponyboy

The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.

Happens alot apparently. I remember a big one when I was little. My mother and I were in the drive thru at the bank and my mom went to make a $200 withdraw and the teller made a boo-boo by one zero apparently and gave her $2000. The weird thing was that there wasn't 2K in her checking account to take out, so she knew there was a big problem for the teller. Being the great person she was, she took the money back. I don't think I could.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Without thinking of course I grabbed it and ran after her to give it back. But after I did I suddenly thought wow - could have been a free Ipod if I had just grabbed it and kept walking in the other direction.

At your age why would keeping it even cross your mind at any point during or afterwards? Yes, I'm serious.

Originally Posted by Mudge

At your age why would keeping it even cross your mind at any point during or afterwards? Yes, I'm serious.

You telling me you always take the moral high road and don't look back and comtemplate the what ifs?

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

The weird thing was that there wasn't 2K in her checking account to take out, so she knew there was a big problem for the teller. Being the great person she was, she took the money back. I don't think I could.

Most banks have "cameras." These devices are often used to record incidents like this with ATMs that go bad and spit out money. Just because its an accident doesn't mean that someone is going to get away claiming ignorance.

Originally Posted by IainDaniel

You telling me you always take the moral high road, and never comtemplate the what ifs?

No dude but its a fucking iPod. I bought my 60GB brand new, accessories and all, why would I think of stealing something so damn cheap? If someone dropped a suitcase full of money thats another story. If you saw it sitting all by its lonesome, thats another story. But when you see someone drop it, fucking give it back. Its not hard.

Flaw itself is having those thoughts even enter your head in the first place.

$200 or $500 is not worth me feeling like a piece of shit.

Man, if I were a complete douchebag I could have kept that girls iPod.

It takes a few seconds to say hey, you dropped your iPod. It takes longer to think about stealing it and the possible ramifications and how you would feel about it later on.

Were it the suitcase full of money, I'd probably say hey asshole, come get your money before I think twice. The odds of someone getting away with that are probably not hight, in rooms small enough where its too easy to be seen or eliminate everyone else. In larger rooms i.e. a train station, you're already on digital recording in several places. So no, I dont think of stealing.

Originally Posted by Mudge

Most banks have "cameras." These devices are often used to record incidents like this with ATMs that go bad and spit out money. Just because its an accident doesn't mean that someone is going to get away claiming ignorance.

Actually my mother managed a bank for 10 years. The teller is repsonsible for her own drawer, she would have been screwed had my mother not brought the money back.

Originally Posted by FatCatMC

Actually my mother managed a bank for 10 years. The teller is repsonsible for her own drawer, she would have been screwed had my mother not brought them money back.

Maybe in some podunk town they are not aware of these "camera" devices. Over here, the teller would likely be out of a job and told to repeat the first grade, and the woman would be getting some visits.

Originally Posted by Mudge

Maybe in some podunk town they are not aware of these "camera" devices. Over here, the teller would likely be out of a job, and the woman would be getting some visits.

Damn, you're in a foul mood eh?

The teller would be out of a job. Period.

No I don't disagree. Give it back 100%. That isn't really where I am going. It is natural to evaluate decisions you make and think of alternative out comes ie.to do the wrong.