Yes, Virginia, guns kill innocents

**min0 lee** · 04-18-2007, 06:20 PM

Still love those guns, Virginia?
Ready to admit that it's madness for any psycho to be able to saunter into a gun shop and acquire firepower capable of killing 32 innocents?
Feel different now that the blood is the blood of so many of your most promising young people?

You've been shrugging for decades as illegal guns from your state plague our city, killing and maiming and terrorizing New Yorkers by the thousands, at one point comprising 47% of the guns our cops recovered.
You even yukked it up with a "Bloomberg Gun GiveAway" raffle at a gun shop that sold at least 22 guns used in crimes in New York.

You went into a tizzy when Mayor Bloomberg sued some of your gun shops after undercover agents made fraudulent "straw purchases."
Your idea of gun control has been to pass a law making it illegal for undercover agents like those Bloomberg sent South to make such buys.
You seemed to think it was no big deal when an aide to your junior U.S. senator got caught carrying an automatic pistol into the Capitol, you having voted Sen. James Webb into office as an avowed opponent of gun control.
You had a big debate this year about whether Virginia Tech was wrong to discipline a student who was caught carrying a licensed pistol to class.

Never mind that a Virginia gun license is not half as hard to get as a driving license.
Never mind that there are so many guns lying around that an escaped jailbird managed to get hold of one and kill a cop and a security guard at the edge of the Virginia Tech campus at the start of the school year.
Yesterday, the shooting was in the heart of the campus, which suddenly felt like the bleeding heart of the whole nation.

We certainly have enough parents in New York who know all too well what the families of Virginia Tech will be suffering.
We also have cause anew to give thanks for the bravery of Auxiliary Police Officers Eugene Marshalik and Nicholas Pekearo, who died stopping a crazed gunman in Greenwich Village in March.
We have reason to remember Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly saying that the two brave auxiliaries and the equally brave cops who then killed the gunman may well have prevented a massacre. Our psycho certainly had enough bullets.

When we listened to yesterday's gunshots as recorded by a cell phone video, we assumed the police we saw holding back had been ordered to watch the perimeter while other cops charged through the chained doors toward the gunfire. We hoped they had not hesitated as the cops did during the massacre at the Columbine High School in 1999.

We replayed yesterday's video and listened to those gunshots again, each the hyper-real sound of a gun doing exactly what it is engineered to do no matter who is holding it, no matter who it is pointed at, be they on a New York street or in Norris Hall at Virginia Tech.

Today, Virginia Tech will hold a public convocation in the wake of the carnage. President Bush has said he will attend, but his spokeswoman assures us he remains a firm believer in the right to bear arms.
Also expected to be there is Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine, who is returning early from an overseas trip. He recently signed Bill 2106, the anti-Bloomberg legislation that forbids undercover agents from making straw purchases.
Not even the worst campus massacre in American history is about to stop Bob Moates Sports Shop of Midlothian, Va., from going ahead with its big Bloomberg Gun GiveAway. The winner will receive a Para-Ordinance Model 1911 .45 automatic, silver and no less deadly than the black pistol a witness says the Virginia Tech psycho used. The 1911 is part of the company's new line of "Gun Rights" pistols, which carry the guarantee the company will donate $25 to the National Rifle Association for every one sold.
"The drawing is April 19," a man at Moates said yesterday.

No wonder some of our cops up here in New York say the bumper stickers down there should really read, "Virginia Is for Gun Lovers."
What do you say now, Virginia?

**min0 lee** · 04-18-2007, 06:24 PM

.

Editorial
Right, sure, guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. We've heard it already.
Ah, but there are so many people with guns. And their guns are so easy to come by.

Particularly, not to put too fine a point on it, in places like the great State of Virginia, which, you'll recall, is a state so annoyed by the crackdown efforts of such anti-homicide types as New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg that it recently passed a law making it a crime for undercovers to run stings on the great state of Virginia's fine gun dealers.

And the initial White House response to today's tragedy was, can you believe it, an affirmation of the right to bear arms in this country - a jawdroppingly inappropriate jerk of the knee that was modulated in subsequent official remarks.

Well, true enough, per the Constitution, such a right is indeed posited, though we believe the framers had state militias in mind when they framed that posit, not every wacko with a beef.
Not every college boy at the edge of meltdown.
Not every disgruntled worker who can't stand his boss for one more minute.
Not every lovesick swain who thinks his girl is stepping out on him.
No, the Framers could not have meant them.

At this writing, we do not know if yesterday's crazed shooter had his guns legally registered to him or not. That's hardly even the point now.
The point is that more than 30 random innocents are dead and lots more are badly shot up, in one of the worst mass slaughters in the nation's history, because this guy was carrying firepower that was readily available to him.
This is insanity, and this must stop.

We agree, frankly, that if guns are outlawed, as they say, only outlaws will have guns.
There will not soon come a time when private ownership of firearms is prohibited in this country. That will not happen. Those who want guns will surely continue to find them, somewhere or another.

But we can sure make it a lot tougher for them to do that, and we can sure bring down the number of guns freely circulating in every hamlet and valley of the land. Stricter paperwork oversight alone would keep a good many folks from ever buying a gun in the first place. Add on hard-as-nails local gun laws and stern penalties for violating them. It's got to start happening.

Fine, guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people. But if people who want to shoot people don't have guns to shoot those people with, then those are people who don't get shot.

**ZECH** · 04-18-2007, 06:28 PM

From the attacks of 9/11 to Monday's school shooting, after every mass murder there is an overwhelming urge to "do something" to prevent a similar attack.

But since Adam ate the apple and let evil into the world, deranged individuals have existed.

Most of the time they can't be locked up until it's too late. It's not against the law to be crazy -- in some jurisdictions it actually makes you more viable as a candidate for public office.

It's certainly not against the law to be an unsociable loner. If it were, Ralph Nader would be behind bars right now, where he belongs. Mass murder is often the first serious crime unbalanced individuals are caught committing -- as appears to be in the case of the Virginia Tech shooter.

The best we can do is enact policies that will reduce the death toll when these acts of carnage occur, as they will in a free and open society of 300 million people, most of whom have cable TV.

Only one policy has ever been shown to deter mass murder: concealed-carry laws. In a comprehensive study of all public, multiple-shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, the inestimable economists John Lott and Bill Landes found that concealed-carry laws were the only laws that had any beneficial effect.

And the effect was not insignificant. States that allowed citizens to carry concealed handguns reduced multiple-shooting attacks by 60 percent and reduced the death and injury from these attacks by nearly 80 percent.

Apparently, even crazy people prefer targets that can't shoot back. The reason schools are consistently popular targets for mass murderers is precisely because of all the idiotic "Gun-Free School Zone" laws.

From the people who brought you "zero tolerance," I present the Gun-Free Zone! Yippee! Problem solved! Bam! Bam! Everybody down! Hey, how did that deranged loner get a gun into this Gun-Free Zone?

It isn't the angst of adolescence. Plenty of school shootings have been committed by adults with absolutely no reason to be at the school, such as Laurie Dann, who shot up the Hubbard Woods Elementary School in Winnetka, Ill., in 1988; Patrick Purdy, who opened fire on children at Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, Calif., in 1989; and Charles Carl Roberts, who murdered five schoolgirls at an Amish school in Lancaster County, Pa., last year.

Oh by the way, the other major "Gun-Free Zone" in America is the post office.

But instantly, on the day of the shooting at Virginia Tech, the media were already promoting gun control and pre-emptively denouncing right-wingers who point out that gun control enables murderers rather than stopping them. Liberals get to lobby for gun control, but we're disallowed from arguing back. That's how good their arguments are. They're that good.

Needless to say, Virginia Tech is a Gun-Free School Zone -- at least until last Monday. The gunman must not have known. Imagine his embarrassment! Perhaps there should be signs.

Virginia Tech even prohibits students with concealed-carry permits from carrying their guns on campus. Last year, the school disciplined a student for carrying a gun on campus, despite his lawful concealed-carry permit. If only someone like that had been in Norris Hall on Monday, this massacre could have been ended a lot sooner.

But last January, the Virginia General Assembly shot down a bill that would have prevented universities like Virginia Tech from giving sanctuary to mass murderers on college campuses in Virginia by disarming students with concealed-carry permits valid in the rest of the state.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the legislature for allowing the school to disarm lawful gun owners on the faculty and student body, thereby surrendering every college campus in the state to deranged mass murderers, saying: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Others disagreed. Writing last year about another dangerous killer who had been loose on the Virginia Tech campus, graduate student Jonathan McGlumphy wrote: "Is it not obvious that all students, faculty and staff would have been safer if (concealed handgun permit) holders were not banned from carrying their weapons on campus?"

If it wasn't obvious then, it is now.

**fufu** · 04-18-2007, 06:33 PM

One incident cannot prove shit. The killings were horrible, but this does not mean the country need to go hay-wire with gun control.

Sounds cold, but 32 deaths is a neglible amount of murder compared to the millions of people in the USA. You can't control everything, you can't be god.

I knew this issue would pop up.

**brogers** · 04-18-2007, 06:38 PM

McVeigh killed with fertlizer.
9/11 hijackers used box cutters.

The gun did not make him kill people, it was merely his tool. It was also a tool that could have been used by one of the students to end the situation with far less dead.

He walked on to the campus KNOWING he was going to be the only guy in that building with a firearm. Gun-control laws provided protection to that sicko.

**min0 lee** · 04-18-2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by brogers

McVeigh killed with fertlizer.
9/11 hijackers used box cutters.

The gun did not make him kill people, it was merely his tool. It was also a tool that could have been used by one of the students to end the situation with far less dead.

He walked on to the campus KNOWING he was going to be the only guy in that building with a firearm. Gun-control laws provided protection to that sicko.

It would have been really interesting if he used his bare hands to kill them, but he was sort of puny.....

**BoneCrusher** · 04-18-2007, 06:51 PM

Interesting you avoided the other thread on this very topic min0 ...

**min0 lee** · 04-18-2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

Interesting you avoided the other thread on this very topic min0 ...

I came too late, I just noticed it.

**ZECH** · 04-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Also, I want to add that my post were not my words. I will leave the real author out for for to keep on track in this thread.
But I agree 100% with it.

**DOMS** · 04-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I came too late

Which one?

**min0 lee** · 04-18-2007, 07:20 PM

:d

**Witmaster** · 04-18-2007, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

:d

busted!

**Newt** · 04-18-2007, 07:39 PM

There are freaks from everywhere that kill with everything! You can't do anything to stop anything. Stop guns, then people will kill with something else.

**KelJu** · 04-18-2007, 08:25 PM

That shit is so fucking dumb. How many people die in car accidents every day? What are we going to do ban cars. I'm so tired of hearing this pussy shit of of retards that know nothing about guns or gun stats in the first place. Oh, lets take 1 fucking event and generalize to the entire population.

**Dumby** · 04-18-2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

That shit is so fucking dumb. How many people die in car accidents every day? What are we going to do ban cars. I'm so tired of hearing this pussy shit of of retards that know nothing about guns or gun stats in the first place. Oh, lets take 1 fucking event and generalize to the entire population.

Exactly. It's a stupid argument. If all guns were banned, and this guy really wanted to end those lives he would have found a way. After guns, what's next? Knives? Anything that can be used a weapon? We'll all be living in a rubber room world.

**clemson357** · 04-18-2007, 10:04 PM

I get so god damned tired of this bullshit. If you think the answer to the Virginia Tech incident is more gun control, you are a fucking idiot. Thats all it comes down to.

THE GOD DAMNED VIRGINIA TECH CAMPUS WAS A GUN FREE ZONE!!! THAT IS WHY THE SHOOTING HAPPENED THERE.

Congratulations, your gun control worked perfectly. Everyone was disarmed; they were perfect targets. To months ago a shooting happened in a Utah mall, which was also a gun free zone. An off duty police officer, who wasn't supposed to be carrying his gun because of the gun free policy, stopped the shooting. Thank god he disregarded your fucking nonsensical policies, and saved an unknown number of lives.

England has a nearly total gun ban, and since instituting the ban in 1997 crime has skyrocketed, including gun crime. The same exact thing happened in Australia. The same exact thing happened in Washington DC.

We can't stop drugs from infiltrating our borders. We can't stop illegals from infiltrating our borders. Even if we managed to confiscate the hundreds of millions of unregistered guns in this country, criminals would still have extremely easy access to them. If is a mother fucking demonstrable fact.

**AKIRA** · 04-18-2007, 10:09 PM

Wheres the vid of this kid?

**min0 lee** · 04-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Witmaster

busted!

Lee hates guns, Paul has nothing against guns.

**BoneCrusher** · 04-20-2007, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Lee hates guns, Paul has nothing against guns.

SO ... "we are of two minds on the subject" ... do you flip a coin to settle the gun related disputes?

**KelJu** · 04-20-2007, 05:54 PM

What is this lee and paul stuff about?

**min0 lee** · 04-20-2007, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

SO ... "we are of two minds on the subject" ... do you flip a coin to settle the gun related disputes?

No guns are allowed in my house.

**min0 lee** · 04-20-2007, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

What is this lee and paul stuff about?

Where haave you been?

**KelJu** · 04-20-2007, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Where haave you been?

Busy with school. I missed some thread. So what is the lee and paul stuff about. Are you a gay couple posting under one name?

**fufu** · 04-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

Busy with school. I missed some thread. So what is the lee and paul stuff about. Are you a gay couple posting under one name?

**KelJu** · 04-20-2007, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by fufu

Damn it, come on guys. Fill me in, wtf is going on.

**min0 lee** · 04-20-2007, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by KelJu

Busy with school. I missed some thread. So what is the lee and paul stuff about. Are you a gay couple posting under one name?

**clemson357** · 04-20-2007, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

No guns are allowed in my house.

So you live in a gun-free-zone, just like all the students at Virginia Tech.

**min0 lee** · 04-21-2007, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by clemson357

So you live in a gun-free-zone, just like all the students at Virginia Tech.

The only people I know who have guns here are business owners and the criminals.

I would hate to imagine how it would be for anyone to own guns in NYC.....it would be the OK corral.

**min0 lee** · 04-21-2007, 09:33 AM

I guess the point your making is that if the other students were armed at least be able to defend themselves?

**Spaceman Spiff** · 04-21-2007, 01:01 PM

Virginia Tech - Gun Free Zone
Amish School - GUn Free Zone
Columbine - Gun Free Zone
Notice a Pattern?

There is a striking paradox associated with mass murders. They are far more likely to occur in areas that have been designated as gun-free zones.

Worldwide, office buildings, hospitals, convenience stores, TV studios, chain restaurants and day-care centers have all been targets of homicidal maniacs. Mass murders have taken place in such places after they have been declared gun-free zones.

In 1999, John Lott and William Landes published a U.S. study of multiple shooting incidents. They showed that mass shootings occur less often in areas where responsible citizens may carry weapons.

Do mass shootings ever occur in police stations, shooting ranges or at gun shows? Mass murderers select soft targets for their acts of violence. Expecting a suicidal individual to honor a law prohibiting firearms is sheer utopian fantasy.

In Europe, 16 people were killed in a public school shooting in Germany in April 2002. Another two public shootings were the killing of 14 regional legislators in Zug, a Swiss Canton (September 2001) and the massacre of eight city council members in a Paris suburb in March 2002.

According to John R. Lott Jr., all three of these European killing sprees had one thing in common: They took place in gun-free zones. Firearms surely make it easier to kill people, but firearms also make it easier for people to defend themselves.

Declaring gun-free zones risks leaving potential victims defenseless.

In the U.S., thugs using firearms at elementary or secondary schools between 1997 and 2002 killed 32 students. The total includes gang fights, robberies, accidents and the so-called "school shootings." All these attacks took place in gun-free zones.

In Israel, however, teachers and parents serving as school aids are armed at all times on school grounds with semi-automatic weapons. Since this policy was adopted in the 1970s, attacks by gunmen at schools in Israel have ceased.

Government officials must be aware that if they create a gun-free zone, they are liable for any harm it causes. Why would those in authority rather see law-abiding, disarmed citizens die than risk armed citizens harming a criminal?

With lives lost in Germany and the United States in schools that are gun-free zones, and no attacks by armed gunmen in Israel since teachers and parents serving as school aids have been armed, why would we want any area declared a gun-free zone?

History and common sense prove that gun-free zones are dangerous.

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