Tier

I don't need it for everything.

Duncans Donuts

That is actually can be a good thing. With a rigorous standard of proof, you will be very skeptical of things you see and study. Whatever conclusions you draw will be from a high standard of rigor.

Here is one point though; not all people who believe build their "faith" on a bible or a tautology. A great many scientific thinkers (like Newton) arrived at conclusions for God without being sheep. Einstein, critical of religion indeed, did believe in deity who was impersonal and disconnected. Personal attacks are useless. Bullying and assault are too.

"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

Duncans Donuts

I spent a lot of time struggling with issues of personal worth and purpose. The undertaking of searching for that purpose led me into a historical study of the major religions. I read a lot of philosophy books, too. Thomas Aquanis very profoundly influenced me, as well as C.S. Lewis. I also read a great deal of atheistic and materialist literature. Dawkins, Dennet, Gould. It took me a long time, having struggled with health and anger issues, to finally arrive happily and confidently with a new found spirtuality.

I believe that the New Testament message is beautiful and elegant. I believe in a universal moral standard that exists, and thank God for it because with that I can confidently say that pedophilia, rape, murder, and those things are wrong on a fundamental level, they are heinous. Since my niece was born having that sturdy belief helps me, personally. Moral relativism is a scary thing to me.

"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

bio-chem

well said

NeilPearson

In your opinion... many believe the bible is God's word

NeilPearson

So how did you chose your faith? -- edit I see this was answered

NeilPearson

So what religion did you settle on?

Witchblade

I found this bit interesting, because it's one of the few pieces of logical argumentation. Cheers for that.

You said you studied philosophy. Then you should know about David Hume and Immanuel Kant. They say causal thinking is simply the way our mind is organized. Causality is not a substance. We can not perceive causality. We only perceive A, which is always followed by B. We therefore conclude A -> B. However, the notion that A caused B is simply rethorics and semantics. We only know that B happens after A. Therefore, we can not logically conclude there was a beginning (of the universe), nor can we disprove infinity. Causality is just the way our mind organizes what it perceives.

Interestingly, Al Farabi, Averroës and the likes used the theory of the unmoved mover to prove God. I believe this is a logical fallacy, because they say every contingent effect requires a cause and thus there has to be a first cause, which is God. However, the conclusion is ruled out by the premise, as that first cause (basically an effect) would also need a cause. The universe can not be this first cause, but God can? The universe can not be infinite, but God can? This theory holds as much ground as scepticism ('we can not know anything') and the Matrix (which restarts at the end).

p.s. Another interesting thing about the universe is this. The timeframe humans have studied the universe is 0 relative to the time we think the universe has existed. Total time/witnessed time = 0,000... rounded down to a very large number of digits. It is thus almost impossible to detect any sort of pattern. This is just sidetracking though compared to the main argument that infinity can not be disproven.

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KelJu

Wrong. I suggested. I didn't demand. There is a huge difference. Then again, you aren't here to talk. I didn;t write that for you anyway. You are here to stir shit up and troll. So go fuck yourself. You are a waste of my time.

goob

I think you got the wrong end of the stick - he was reffering to teaching Creationism in school. Classic Kelju moment.

KelJu

Hume was one of my favorites. I think he said that god was the essence of whatever set the first particles in motion. The universe is nothing but reactions. Whatever had the power to move without being moved by something else is the existence of a power that human beings can't comprehend.

KelJu

Doesn't matter. I wrote the answer to the wrong question, but none the less, its still correct. Tier is a dickhead that is looking to get a rise out of people.

Tier

I was having a religious debate, it has happened in the past.

You on the other hand just owned yourself, go ahead and take your gay little nipple piercing right out the thread with you if you don't like the topic. Say hi to Sauron for me tool bag.

KelJu

Hahha, I love that picture. I was high as a kite. Thats why I put it in my gallery.

I guess I must have made you pretty mad to make you go hunting pictures to insult. Looks like somebody can dish it out, but can't take it. I'll give you my photo bucket account if you want it. There are tons of pictures there to insult. You seem to have a lot of time for that.

goob

Hats off to Tier, that was a good comeback.


On a sidenote, I know its an old picture, but your built really solid Kelju. Good work.

Tier

Yeah, looking huge in that pic.

Nate K

Why Christianity.....partly becuase it's popular in america and in your family?

Why choose a religion.

I like things like philosophical Taoism n such.....if so much research of religion is necessary why hold yourself back by "choosing" new testament stuff??
like an MMA guy only practicing wrestling?

Since faith is a choice why put it all in one organized religion?

like a hungy man thinking of food, like a thirsty man thinking of water, like a child longing for its mother. It don't matter...it's just desire.

Witchblade

Just to clarify: I was referring only to Hume's theory of causality. All the philosophers I mentioned believed in God, but that's beside the point.

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Duncans Donuts

Hume's philosophical argumentation on causation has been largely divorced from the evidence that has been discovered in cosmetology. Considering a universal expansion, and the reality of a Big bang singularity (beginning) comprehensively certain, a throwback to thsi antiquated historical document seems relevant: In the beginning, God. What Hume's infinity regress has become is clearly unnecessary, as infinity is not a concept we find in the universe.

Regarding Hume's position on causes; causes are experimentally verifiable interactions which have quantifiable values (effects). Forces in physics, gasoline motors, microwaves, etc. operate on our principle understanding of cause and effect. Assembly line manufacturing depend on it; it is not just a semantic, subjective interpretation.

More on causation: "In the world of senses, there is an order of efficient causes." Accorded with observation of the world, effects are always preceded by causes. A man can't be his own father, and history is thick with the cumulative effects and no contradictions. Effects are not manufactured without instigation. Tracing them backward eventually leads to that singularity, that beginning.

Really, causes can be in the midst of an infinite loop of effects with no initial mover? Aquanis says: "it is not possible to go on to infinity because in all causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate, and the intermediate cause the cause of the ultimate cause." If you were to watch an endless row of falling dominoes, would we assume that no first domino set the others toppling? I personally find this incoherent.

Aquinas confronts this notion in his second cosmological argument: That the idea of a contingent deity is inherently doomed to fail, and thus doomed to fail because whatever God might do to cause the existence of the universe, God's existence would thus require a cause as well.

"Therefore, not all beings are merely possible; there must exist something the existence of which is necessary."

With infinity evidentially disregarded as a component of this universe, attempts to toss back the causation argument immediately fail. Without infinity, causation smacks its face into the original event. Some of our most concluded assertions of reality go along with it. If matter cannot be CREATED nor DESTROYED, how am I sitting on this chair? If there was a beginning, matter was brought into being. What process in physics can bring about structures like atoms - out of NOTHING? It is not a wild inference to make that whatever initiated the first cause, He must be able to violate those laws, in fact likely litigated those laws into nature.

The materialist position is that the universe is improbable, so God himself must be even more improbable. (Dawkins)

My position assumes that God is himself necessary, and thus is the universe.

I'm not surprised to see digital code in cells, or biochemical machines, or fined tune laws and constants holding the universe in place. It validates my conclusion that as much as something is necessary so is it purposeful and so will the evidence testify for it.

If not God, then nothing. And if nothing seems so plausible, why not God?

"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

chilco

You see,
People like Einstein and these so called "intellectuals" refuse to bellieve in a God mostly because if they did they'd have to acknowledge something bigger than themsleves. They'd also have to live by a respectable code of conduct.
What can I say to make you believe? Not much I'm sure! there will be a day however when you will accept the fact that there are things you can't control, things you cannot cure, things you cannot change. Some will fall to their knees and pray. Other's will become bitter and push thier Creator further away. For some God will reveal his miracles.
"The time for honouring yourself will soon come to an end........"

Witchblade

Although I don't agree with it, a very fair thesis. The best logical arguments for the existence of God I've seen so far and I've seen a lot.

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chilco

Does any one believe that 1+1+2?
how do you know this? Are u sure?
Who says? How do we know it's true.
Prove it.
something + something= something
nothing+nothing= nada, zero, nil