SCOTUS will end 2nd Amendment debate today

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 09:48 AM

This houseplant did a search with the help of a wandering Jew.

Quote:

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban

Quote:

Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:
35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.
Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views." Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

When I say a difference I am talking about carrying a gun in a crowded subway with hudreds of passengers...when I visit my sisters upstate Rochester I can see being able to carry a concealed gun but here in the crowded city....I don't know.

Yes, as the criminals of course are thinking the same thing "I best not bring a gun into the crowded subway car"

You would prefer a criminal or crazy person in that subway with a gun and everyone else with zero means of self defense?

Give me a fighting chance over zero chance any day. Logic, stats, and history, are you friend Min0

clemson357 · 06-27-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

When I say a difference I am talking about carrying a gun in a crowded subway with hudreds of passengers...when I visit my sisters upstate Rochester I can see being able to carry a concealed gun but here in the crowded city....I don't know.

Min0, this is a fear-based, irrational argument. Crime has dropped nationwide, including in big cities, since concealed carry has swept the nation.

Violent crime is primarily a cultural thing. A person who can legally own a gun, and thus has never had a felony conviction, and goes to the trouble of getting licensed by the state, which includes fees, waiting periods, and training classes, is about the last person in the country who is going to commit any type of crime. As far as accidents go, you are infinitely more likely to burn to death, be accidently poisoned, or die from a fall than you are from an accidental gun shot.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 09:50 AM

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Democratic Jr Senator (IL)

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws

Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual's right to bear arms?

A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.
Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns?
A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don't have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets. Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban

Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:
35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.
Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views." Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok

Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?

A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions. Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing

Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?

A: I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets. Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month

Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns.
Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers

Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.

When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."
It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police. Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities

Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?

A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we've had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who've been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That's a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don't have it right now. Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality

I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions

Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:

Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices

Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-219 on Jul 29, 2005

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

This houseplant did a search with the help of a wandering Jew.

"Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did"

If you find that a satisfactory answer and excuse, you're hopeless. His voting record on gun control is easy to find, and he's never seen a gun control law he didn't like no matter what BS he spews to the press. BTW, McCain is no great friend to gun owners and the 2A either, as his voting record shows, but he's far better in that area than Obama. No one should mistake McCain as being clearly pro gun owner/pro 2A.

bio-chem · 06-27-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

When I say a difference I am talking about carrying a gun in a crowded subway with hudreds of passengers...when I visit my sisters upstate Rochester I can see being able to carry a concealed gun but here in the crowded city....I don't know.

concealed carry is a different issue than what i thought we were discussing.

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Democratic Jr Senator (IL)

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok

Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?

He can't, nor did he, nor did the Supreme Court agree, which shows you he talks from all holes in his body. The rest of this supports that fact he will state he supports the 2A then goes onto show he clearly has no clue what that actually means.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Yes, as the criminals of course are thinking the same thing "I best not bring a gun into the crowded subway car"

You would prefer a criminal or crazy person in that subway with a gun and everyone else with zero means of self defense?

Give me a fighting chance over zero chance any day. Logic, stats, and history, are you friend Min0

There was an incident a few years ago when 2 guys were fighting on the Flushing line.
The fight spilled over to these 2 guys at the end of the train.
One guy pulls out his gun and starts to wave it at everyone, including me. This was at about 4:30 during rush hour.

The train was full of innocent bystanders and for all I know the guy is a law abiding citizen....how do we know.
Another thing I doubt if he was to use his gun he will definitly have injured a few people in the process.

Not a good feeling seeing a gun waved at your face.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clemson357

Min0, this is a fear-based, irrational argument. Crime has dropped nationwide, including in big cities, since concealed carry has swept the nation.

Violent crime is primarily a cultural thing. A person who can legally own a gun, and thus has never had a felony conviction, and goes to the trouble of getting licensed by the state, which includes fees, waiting periods, and training classes, is about the last person in the country who is going to commit any type of crime. As far as accidents go, you are infinitely more likely to burn to death, be accidently poisoned, or die from a fall than you are from an accidental gun shot.

I am actually for gun ownership, my other half is dead against it.
I see your point.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

"Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did"

If you find that a satisfactory answer and excuse, you're hopeless. His voting record on gun control is easy to find, and he's never seen a gun control law he didn't like no matter what BS he spews to the press. BTW, McCain is no great friend to gun owners and the 2A either, as his voting record shows, but he's far better in that area than Obama. No one should mistake McCain as being clearly pro gun owner/pro 2A.

The qoute is in your favor, it states that he is against guns....

Quote:

Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

There was an incident a few years ago when 2 guys were fighting on the Flushing line.
The fight spilled over to these 2 guys at the end of the train.
One guy pulls out his gun and starts to wave it at everyone, including me. This was at about 4:30 during rush hour.

The train was full of innocent bystanders and for all I know the guy is a law abiding citizen....how do we know.

Because law abiding gun owners DON'T PULL OUT GUNS AND WAVE THEM AROUND if they wish to remain law abiding gun owners. Christ almighty...

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Another thing I doubt

Your "doubts" never seem to be based on facts, data, and logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

if he was to use his gun he will definitly have injured a few people in the process.

Gee, you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Not a good feeling seeing a gun waved at your face.

Especially when you have no means of defending yourself. It really can't be this tough for you to follow is it?

**Dale Mabry** · 06-27-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Don't be fooled. Someone that is not totally in support of gun owners and who dodges the question like he does and is in favor of "SOME" gun support, is in favor of "Total" gun banning. Read between the lines.

That's not true, I am for people having guns, even on their person. I do believe that there should be no issue with a waiting period/application. I don't believe it is that big of a deal to wait a few days. I fail to see any logical reason why a person would need a gun at that absolute moment that wouldn't involve some sort of crime. I also fail to see the need for a person in the general population to possess a fully automatic weapon, but am on the fence on that one. I bet it would be fun to rattle off a couple hundred shots, though.

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I am actually for gun ownership, .

I have yet to see any proof of that, but I am glad to hear it!

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

The qoute is in your favor, it states that he is against guns....

I already knew that. It was you who seemed to doubt it, not I.

brogers · 06-27-2008, 10:24 AM

Why is it so hard to understand that "gun control" only applies to citizens who are already willing to obey the law? Disarming responsible, law-abiding citizens does nothing but create a pool of easy victims for criminals. The person who seeks to use a gun to commit a robbery, assault, or any other crime does not obey the law, making an additional law is not going to change that.

bio-chem · 06-27-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Because law abiding gun owners DON'T PULL OUT GUNS AND WAVE THEM AROUND if they wish to remain law abiding gun owners. Christ almighty...

Your "doubts" never seem to be based on facts, data, and logic.

Gee, you think?

Especially when you have no means of defending yourself. It really can't be this tough for you to follow is it?

bring it back a notch. doubts sometimes are not based on facts, data, or logic. but doubts are doubts. you know how to discuss these doubts to ease them, and being a sarcastic dick isn't the way to go about it. especially when you have an audience intelligent enough to listen. save your sarcastic jack ass remarks for kbm. that guy doesnt listen anyway

brogers · 06-27-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

That's not true, I am for people having guns, even on their person. I do believe that there should be no issue with a waiting period/application. I don't believe it is that big of a deal to wait a few days. I fail to see any logical reason why a person would need a gun at that absolute moment that wouldn't involve some sort of crime. I also fail to see the need for a person in the general population to possess a fully automatic weapon, but am on the fence on that one. I bet it would be fun to rattle off a couple hundred shots, though.

I think a legally owned automatic weapon has only been used for criminal purposes once since the 1940's. I am not 100% sure though.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

I have yet to see any proof of that, but I am glad to hear it!

I'll become a member of the NRA if that would be proof enough...of course I will have to get a new place to live in.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

I already knew that. It was you who seemed to doubt it, not I.

I found it, you were right I quoted it but yet.........

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

bring it back a notch. doubts sometimes are not based on facts, data, or logic.

Mine are. If I have doubts on a topic, I will then take the time to research the topic a bit before expressing that doubt, and or will preface the doubt with "I have not looked into this topic but..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

but doubts are doubts.

irrlevent. A doubt should be based on something above emotional knee jerk responses and ignorance of a topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

you know how to discuss these doubts to ease them, and being a sarcastic dick isn't the way to go about it. especially when you have an audience intelligent enough to listen.

I assure you, Min0 has never listened before on this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

save your sarcastic jack ass remarks for kbm. that guy doesnt listen anyway

And insulting me is not the way to bring that about. I have much history on this topic with Min0, which you can find long ass threads on. There was no intention of being a jack ass, but plenty intended sarcasm, and Min0 deserved every bit of it.

Min0 seems like a nice person, and we get along fine in other threads and other topics, but his position on this topic, and the way he goes about it, is mind boggling. Do I potentially lose a convert by being sarcastic? Sure, but I tried the using facts, data, and history with him before, and I can see, it failed to have any effects, so sarcasm it is!

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I found it, you were right I quoted it but yet.........

Yet? You're still not convinced, or something else?

**Dale Mabry** · 06-27-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brogers

I think a legally owned automatic weapon has only been used for criminal purposes once since the 1940's. I am not 100% sure though.

Probably right, which is why I am on the fence. Although I don't see any reason for people to have them, I don't see what a ban would really effect. We already have too many needless laws as is.

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

bring it back a notch. doubts sometimes are not based on facts, data, or logic. but doubts are doubts. you know how to discuss these doubts to ease them, and being a sarcastic dick isn't the way to go about it. especially when you have an audience intelligent enough to listen. save your sarcastic jack ass remarks for kbm. that guy doesnt listen anyway

Thanks Bio.

bio-chem · 06-27-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Mine are. If I have doubts on a topic, I will then take the time to research the topic a bit before expressing that doubt, and or will preface the doubt with "I have not looked into this topic but..."

irrlevent. A doubt should be based on something above emotional knee jerk responses and ignorance of a topic.

I assure you, Min0 has never listened before on this topic.

And insulting me is not the way to bring that about. I will save my comments for whom ever I want. I have much history on this topic with Min0, which you can find long ass threads on. There was no intention of being a jack ass, but plenty intended sarcasm, and Min0 deserved every bit of it.

Min0 seems like a nice person, and we get along fine in other threads and other topics, but his position on this topic, and the way he goes about it, is mind boggling. Do I potentially lose a convert by being sarcastic? Sure, but I tried the using facts, data, and history with him before, and I can see, it failed to have any effects, so sarcasm it is!

never mind that mino is 2 people.

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I'll become a member of the NRA if that would be proof enough...of course I will have to get a new place to live in.

NY is overrated anyway.

WillBrink · 06-27-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

never mind that mino is 2 people.

Multiple personality syndrome, cool.

Which Mino are we talking to today?

min0 lee · 06-27-2008, 10:49 AM

Paul, Lee hates guns.
As I said before I can't even have a BB gun.

Hopefully she won't see this.

**Dale Mabry** · 06-27-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Multiple personality syndrome, cool.

Which Mino are we talking to today?

The guy is humorous and cool. The chick just bitches a lot.

**dg806** · 06-27-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Multiple personality syndrome, cool.

Which Mino are we talking to today?

I'm guessing Paul

**dg806** · 06-27-2008, 10:55 AM

And Mino, I can see your situation. Have either of you owned a gun or had experience carrying or shooting one? I would guess not. And those types of people in general are the ones against guns. I would wager if you spent time getting comfortable with a gun and shooting it, you would feel much better in carrying one. It's the unknown that scares people.

06-27-2008, 09:50 AM	#94
min0 lee Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 38,792 Photos: 542	Barack Obama on Gun Control Democratic Jr Senator (IL) Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual's right to bear arms? A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it. Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns? A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don't have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets. Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008 FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns." Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line: 35. Do you support state legislation to: a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes. b. ban assault weapons? Yes. c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes. Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views." Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008 Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions? A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions. Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008 Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president? A: I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets. Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns. Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007 Concealed carry OK for retired police officers Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent. When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms." It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police. Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007 Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men? A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we've had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who've been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That's a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don't have it right now. Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007 Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair. Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006 Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions Principles that Obama supports on gun issues: Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons. Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms. Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms. Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998 Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would: Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-219 on Jul 29, 2005 How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper

06-27-2008, 10:49 AM	#117
min0 lee Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 38,792 Photos: 542	Paul, Lee hates guns. As I said before I can't even have a BB gun. Hopefully she won't see this. How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper

06-27-2008, 10:55 AM	#120
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,197	And Mino, I can see your situation. Have either of you owned a gun or had experience carrying or shooting one? I would guess not. And those types of people in general are the ones against guns. I would wager if you spent time getting comfortable with a gun and shooting it, you would feel much better in carrying one. It's the unknown that scares people. 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

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06-27-2008, 10:24 AM	#105
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,502	Why is it so hard to understand that "gun control" only applies to citizens who are already willing to obey the law? Disarming responsible, law-abiding citizens does nothing but create a pool of easy victims for criminals. The person who seeks to use a gun to commit a robbery, assault, or any other crime does not obey the law, making an additional law is not going to change that.