KelJu

There has been a ton of great talk, debate, information, science, and appreciation in the name of Darwin. I learned some stuff I didn't know. I don't care to bored any of you with some of that stuff, but I am curious if any of you still believe evolution isn't real? Do you have any reasons for believing so other than religious reasons?

KelJu

You guys suck!

chobby192

Did Darwin have any connection with buddhism? It sounds so odd, but I read about it somewhere.

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KelJu

chobby192

I am not making it up. I am very serious.

China has become more capitalist than America; America has become more communist than China.
~ Propaganda Buster

maniclion

My Senior Year we spent the last 3 month's of Biology studying Darwin. We went over Origin of Species, read a biography and watched Inherit The Wind.

Darwin was one of those people I aspire to be like, so was H.L. Mencken. People who decide to stop taking the general beliefs everyone else holds as common truths and search beyond them for their own.

Many believe Darwin was an all out Atheist but the man felt that religion and the Bible provided a great moral compass for our species.....

If an Officer Says "Gee Son....Your eyes look red, have you been drinking?" You probably shouldn't respond with, "Gee Officer your eyes look glazed, have you been eating doughnuts?"

IainDaniel

Evolution sure. But to say Evolution is the the reason for the origin of species.... NO!

Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it.

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PainandGain

When you say origin of species, what do you mean?
Origin of life on earth?

We have already setup experiments, where we recreated what
biologists think was the original conditions on earth.

Basically just a few gases mixed with electricity and water.
It's called the Miller–Urey experiment.

Amino's and proteins were produced from nothing basically.


So, if you meant life on earth? you are wrong.
But if you meant, life in general, or the physical universe, that's different.

Disclaimer: i am not atheist.

bio-chem

i do not believe that we evolved from monkey's. i appreciate what darwin did for science. His theory opened up a whole new realm of thinking for us since then and we have gotten many great discoveries in science and medicine because he thought differently.

As a guy who graduated in bio-chemistry I fully recognize the ability to create organic molecules out of inorganic ones. it's actually some pretty cool science. but amino acids and proteins while an important step to life are not the whole way there. We have yet to take the next step and develop even the simplest forms of life in a test tube. why is that?

What we have is a wonderful theory developed from a very incomplete fossil record. I have yet to see a silver bullet in this argument proving evolution. a 3 million year old monkey skull doesn't prove evolution in my mind.

PainandGain

But where is your silver bullet for your religious beliefs?

Religion has been around for thousands of year, but you can't explain to me, the illogical thoughts and morals of your religion?
Yet you still let it dictate everything you do in your life.

However, we've only had these sciences for less than 200 years, and you're argument is why haven't we successfully created life from nothing?
Firm logic there buddy.

PainandGain

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe some people are still so close-minded and hold on to their beliefs so firmly that they are blinded.

You say you are a biochemist, big whoop, so does that mean you are the authority here?
Well you must not have payed attention in class, because if you did you would know that all modern Biology makes sense only in light of Evolution.

You know damn well its more than just fossils.
Some other evidence for Evolution:

1. Homologous structures:
A lot of organisms have the same design for certain parts of their bodies, yet these body parts have different functions
i.e. arms of vertebrae
suggests a common ancestor

2. Vestigial structures:
a vestigial structure is simply a body-part on an organism that has no function
i.e. the hind leg bones on snakes or other legless vertebrates
also:molars in vampire bats, Wings in ostriches, eyes in cave salamanders...
Wisdom teeth in humans, our appendix and tail bone.

All this suggests common ancestry.

If God made us exactly like we are, then why would we have useless body parts?

3. Embryology- this is when babies are still in the womb, early on
All(or almost all) vertebrates (animals with a spine basically..)
have tails and gill slits.... fish, dogs, sheep, even humans
That's right we have gill slits at one point in our development
but mutations over the years (evolution) has caused us to lose them during development and instead we have lungs.

Why would this happen biochem?

and most obviously
4. genetics/BIOCHEMISTRY
all living things use DNA, make proteins using RNA
we all favor ATP, use the same amino acids etc etc

Not to mention fossil records, which can be misleading and have holes in it, but still are fair game.
I mean christ's sakes, you are going to completely ignore fossil records? what kind of scientist are you?
You don't use the scientific theory?

danzik17

I'm not sure why you don't believe in religion dude. We have hard written proof that a magical being created everything. He specifically planted fossils in the ground to test our faith, but the true believers know to ignore such petty tests of faith.

He also may or may not be made out of spaghetti.

Ron Paul 2012

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Moondogg

First off, fucking great post.

Secondly, over the summer I watched a program on Discovery called ''So was Darwin wrong?''. One of the most informative bits of television I have ever seen. It showed how they have now found the majority of the links through the evolution chain. They have now found a fossil showing one of the first creatures to move from water to land, some of the first creatures to move from land to air ect. They then showed around 20 different fossils, showing the evolution of primates into humans.

Thirdly, have you ever watched the Zeitgheist movie? The religion section is very interesting and can be seen on youtube. Their arguments are very one sided and can be slightly misleading, however their facts are correct. Keeping that in mind, it makes a very strong case against religion.

PainandGain

Hahaha!
Trust me, I believe that there must be a catalyst which breathes life into the universe, that made everything possible.

But I think religion only still exists because of ignorance.


In fact, I think it's inhumane to believe in religion, instead of using
Sense, Logic, Deductive and Inductive reasoning.

These characteristics are the personification of what separates us from other animals.

So if you are not doing your best to use these devices, then you are simply allowing yourself to remain an animal instead of furthering humanity.

PainandGain

Glad to see a human, using human reasoning skills.

Yes I have seen Zeitgheist, it's a great resource to open up people to these types of ideas.

If you liked that, you should also see Google Spider Goats.

It's along the same lines as zeitgheist, but seems more objective.

bio-chem

LOL.

religion requires faith. it does not dictate to me. and i disagree that morals are illogical.

im saying the ability to create organic molecules in a test tube does not prove the theory of evolution as fact.

bio-chem

thank you for proving my point. the theory of evolution is still a theory that is incomplete. evidence suggests these things and so we continue down that path scientifically continuing to learn. evidence that suggests something does not prove it.

bio-chem

is this more along the lines of what you were looking for Kelju? the anti-religion folks are up in arms now.

KelJu

No actually. This was not what I intended at all. I have spent the week listening to awesome information and great debates about evolution. I have heard great cases for and against origin of species.

By far, the best I heard was from an English Priest who was a doctor of physics and mathematics who said he believed God set everything in motion. He said that God making the world all at once wouldl be too simple and boring, but a God that could create a simple protein combination that would split mutate and grow into every species we know today is far more beautiful and far more interesting than the literal word of Genesis.

To me, I tend to agree. I am not a believer in the big bang. I believe that something intelligent started everything, but I don't think that being just made humans, and that's the end of the story. There is too much evidence to prove otherwise.

PainandGain

This would be the point. God pushing this reality into motion = big bang

busyLivin

I don't believe in Evolution as the origin of species.

Maybe you have to be reiligious to notice it, but all I see is design. I'll never accept that this all happened by random chance.

PainandGain

See here.
You are using fear as your source of logic, instead of reasoning.
This is why you are wrong.

Also, there's no reason why God didn't push this universe into motion, and just let happen what may.
Why not?

Why does it scare you so much?
Just be thankful you have been given a chance to exist and experience all the amazing things that are.

KelJu

All you see is design, what does that mean?
How do you explain caveman fossils? How do you explain dinosaurs? How to you explain hundreds of thousands of years worth of information in the fossil record?

I can get behind the idea that God set things into motion, but I can't get behind the belief that God made us like we are now from the start.

bio-chem

I wish I knew more about the how as well.

busyLivin

I meant all I see in the world is design... that it's too beautiful/perfect to be random.

I don't discount anything.. if He set evolution in motion, fine. That doesn't scare me in the least. I just don't think unattended Evolution is it.

PainandGain

But this is what you are not getting.
Anything a force that powerful can do, is magnificent.

Think about it like this: God is simply the driving force...a collective Will to live, to be.
Isn't that beautiful?


At least we agree that everything is truly beautiful and amazing. That's one step in the right direction.

busyLivin

Agreed on the last part, but what am I not getting? I see what you're definition of God is.. I just have a different one.

NeilPearson

Then big bang could just be an extension of the English Priest's theory. How much more interesting is it if you take it back even futher, beyond earths formation to include the actual formation of all matter to a single singularity in time.

NeilPearson

It's far from perfect and there is a lot of ugliness out there

PainandGain

What I meant was that here is what you are doing:

You say if God is X, then Y is beautiful.

But if God is not X, then Y is not beautiful.

Even though Y remains constant.
Get it?