Thread: Police: 14 killed in N.Y. rampage

Originally Posted by Prince

[B]

Gov. Paterson said he spoke for all of New York in offering "my prayers for the victims and families of this tragedy,"

Fuc&% prayers. Give me the ability to return fire and not die like a cowering animal and I wont need your prayers Mr. Paterson. Sorry, for my French, but I'm not a big fan of prayers after the fact vs. life or at the very least, taking the BGs with me...

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Fuc&% prayers. Give me the ability to return fire and not die like a cowering animal and I wont need your prayers Mr. Paterson. Sorry, for my French, but I'm not a big fan of prayers after the fact vs. life or at the very least, taking the BGs with me...

Ahh...Be carefull sheepdog some of the sheep will not understand your "agression"......

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Fuc&% prayers. Give me the ability to return fire and not die like a cowering animal and I wont need your prayers Mr. Paterson. Sorry, for my French, but I'm not a big fan of prayers after the fact vs. life or at the very least, taking the BGs with me...

Preach it!
any bets that this was in a 'Gun Free" zone

what's the saying:
rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6...

Originally Posted by vader

Preach it!
any bets that this was in a 'Gun Free" zone

Probably, since most of the people who go to the place aren't even citizens yet and shouldn't be allowed to "bear arms." Now the employees are a different story.

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Fuc&% prayers. Give me the ability to return fire and not die like a cowering animal and I wont need your prayers Mr. Paterson. Sorry, for my French, but I'm not a big fan of prayers after the fact vs. life or at the very least, taking the BGs with me...

I was thinking about you said before, if someone had a gun.....

Originally Posted by vader

Preach it!
any bets that this was in a 'Gun Free" zone

I'm not sure, I think you can own a shotgun out of NYC.

Originally Posted by Goodfella9783

Probably, since most of the people who go to the place aren't even citizens yet and shouldn't be allowed to "bear arms." Now the employees are a different story.

It's odd that there was no armed security guard, I believe they cut that years ago.

Oh, I forgot that NYC was that way. The whole place is supposed to be gun free, right?LOL

Only the criminals own guns here.
Scary.



In fact they don't even sell pellet guns nor paint ball guns here. On would have to go upstate or Long Island to buy one.

Something happened with his noodles.

Who is Jiverly Voong aka Jiverly Wong? Conflicting picture of Binghamton gunman emerges

The maniac who shot 13 people dead in a Binghamton immigration center before killing himself was described Friday as an angry loner who loved guns, hated America and talked about assassinating the President.

Kevin Greene, who once worked with 41-year-old mass murderer Jiverly Voong, said a question about a New York Yankees T-shirt he was wearing brought out his dark side.
Greene said, "I asked him if he liked the Yanks," and "he said, 'No, I don't like that team. I don't like America. America sucks.'"

Greene, who lives outside of Binghamton, said he worked with Voong - whom co-workers knew as Jiverly Wong - for a few months at the Shop Vac assembly plant in Binghamton before it closed in November.

He told FBI investigators he and a buddy used to joke about how they thought Voong "would come in mad one day and shoot people. He seemed like that kind of guy."
Donald Ackley, another former Shop Vac employee, said Voong "kept to himself but made some of off-the-wall comments like he wanted to kill the President."
It was unclear if Voong was threatening the life of former President Bush or President Obama.

Greene said Voong's conversations often focused on weapons. "He went to target practice on Saturday. He said he had two guns, one in his glove compartment. He was always talking about his guns."
But around his home in nearby Johnson City, Voong was known as an attentive son and quiet neighbor.

Neighbors said he was often seen helping his dad, Henry, tend the succulent apples and berries he grew behind his modest frame house.
"They're a nice family, they're great neighbors," said Barbara Monell, 25, who lives next door. "My nephews go over to eat his apples and berries. They're always invited to come over and eat his fruit."

Voong came to the United States from Vietnam with his family when he was young, a source said. He had a brother and a sister, who told The Associated Press her brother couldn't have been the killer.
"How? He didn't have a gun," said the woman, who did not give her name. "I think somebody involved, not him. I think he got shot by somebody else."
Voong's identification was found on the killer's body, police said. The car Voong used to get to the center was registered to his dad.

Mahmoon Shafi, 53, said he fixed Voong's boiler and water heater late last year, and remembers him as a troubled man.
"He was a very nice guy, but he seemed very, very depressed," said Shafi.
Voong often mentioned that his wife and kids had left him, Shafi said.
"He once said to me, 'I did everything good for everybody, but nobody ever did anything good for me.'"
mlysiak@nydailynews.com

Perhaps Jeter jilted Jiverly.







The shooter, who killed himself after the carnage, used his car to block a rear exit at the ...

Originally Posted by min0 lee

I was thinking about you said before, if someone had a gun.....

What Dr Lott had to say:

Another shooting in a another gun free zone: Binghamton, NY

Time after time multiple- victim public shootings occur in “gun free zones” — public places where citizens are not legally able to carry guns. The horrible attack today in Binghamton, New York is no different. Every multiple-victim public shooting that I have studied, where more than three people have been killed, has taken place where guns are banned.

You would think that it would be an important part of the news stories for a simple reason: Gun-free zones are a magnet for these attacks. Extensive discussions of these attacks can be found here and here. We want to keep people safe, but the problem is that it is the law-abiding good citizens, not the criminals, who obey these laws. We end up disarming the potential victims and not the criminals. Rather than making places safe for victims, we unintentionally make them safe for the criminal.

At some point, you would think the media would notice that something is going on here, that these murderers aren’t just picking their targets at random. And this pattern isn’t really too surprising. Most people understand that guns deter criminals. . .

John Lott's Website

Guys, im all pro gun but just saying that if someone has a gun on them that it would make a difference is not true.....The scariest moment in my life was when I was shot at during an active shooter 5 weeks out of the academy, as a rookie cop, I was scared shitless and everything was in slow motion, walking into that mall after the glass in front me shuddered preventing buck shot to spray all over my face. I had to fight people off me who were trying to either grab a hold of me for protection or were trying to run past me like a pack of zebras.....I saw several men with personal firearms running right past me with a sheep mentality, and i don’t blame those men because they could’t possibly know what a real gun battle would feel like (now im sure there are some bad asses in here who do have a sheepdog mentality and would have reacted differently)....but for the most part I think a simple GUN will not make things better, it is what you do with it when death stares you in the face, it is the worst moment of your life where all your instincts are telling you to run but you are not listening, its like swimming up a river....That being said, guys who have guns on them (especially the guys who like to show of that they carry guns) are often the ones who are not mentally prepared to actually use a gun in a scenario like this.......I also went on a call where a pizza restaurant owner shot himself in the face when he was being robbed by some guy because he was so nervous he didn't know what the hell he was doing (he did the "high Sabrina with his gun")
---I guess my whole point is that if someone in there had a gun, it would have mattered to much unless that person seriously thought of himself as someone who is willing to risk his life to save others, and no one can ever imagine how it feels until they experience it…

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

Guys, im all pro gun but just saying that if someone has a gun on them that it would make a difference is not true.....The scariest moment in my life was when I was shot at during an active shooter 5 weeks out of the academy, as a rookie cop, I was scared shitless and everything was in slow motion, walking into that mall after the glass in front me shuddered preventing buck shot to spray all over my face. I had to fight people off me who were trying to either grab a hold of me for protection or were trying to run past me like a pack of zebras.....I saw several men with personal firearms running right past me with a sheep mentality, and i don’t blame those men because they could’t possibly know what a real gun battle would feel like (now im sure there are some bad asses in here who do have a sheepdog mentality and would have reacted differently)....but for the most part I think a simple GUN will not make things better, it is what you do with it when death stares you in the face, it is the worst moment of your life where all your instincts are telling you to run but you are not listening, its like swimming up a river....That being said, guys who have guns on them (especially the guys who like to show of that they carry guns) are often the ones who are not mentally prepared to actually use a gun in a scenario like this.......I also went on a call where a pizza restaurant owner shot himself in the face when he was being robbed by some guy because he was so nervous he didn't know what the hell he was doing (he did the "high Sabrina with his gun")
---I guess my whole point is that if someone in there had a gun, it would have mattered to much unless that person seriously thought of himself as someone who is willing to risk his life to save others, and no one can ever imagine how it feels until they experience it…

Thanks for keeping us safe sheepdog. I feel really safe that someone of your intelligence has a firearm and is in a position of authority. You're so much better than average joe.

P.S. I sure am glad the the glass shuddered and saved you from buckshot.

ur welcum, nau i fil like a bad ass becauz im so kool when i talk shit to people i wouldn’t talk shit to in their face........I have a degree, speak three languages and am a legal immigrant to this country form a war torn one and still have better grammar then most Americans....so you comments, don’t do shit, because i have done more and been thru more in my life than you will EVER........And no im not much better than the average Joe, im a guy like everyone else, and i want to be a human being like everyone else....AND AGAIN, NO I WILL NOT DO A SPELL CHECK OR WRITE A LITTLE SLOWER TOO AVOID A FEW MISTAKES.

And if you think that cops are “in a position of power” and extreme “authority” then take my badge and take my gun, and stick it up your asshole, because you have no clue that police officers in most parts have LESS authority and power but MORE restrictions on their average day to day life than any other people…I will gladly give up my “power” I repeat “ “ to you and see what you do with it tough guy.

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

ur welcum, nau i fil like a bad ass becauz im so kool when i talk shit to people i wouldn’t talk shit to in their face........I have a degree, speak three languages and am a legal immigrant to this country form a war torn one and still have better grammar then most Americans....so you comments, don’t do shit, because i have done more and been thru more in my life than you will EVER........And no im not much better than the average Joe, im a guy like everyone else, and i want to be a human being like everyone else....AND AGAIN, NO I WILL NOT DO A SPELL CHECK OR WRITE A LITTLE SLOWER TOO AVOID A FEW MISTAKES.

And if you think that cops are “in a position of power” and extreme “authority” then take my badge and take my gun, and stick it up your asshole, because you have no clue that police officers in most parts have LESS authority and power but MORE restrictions on their average day to day life than any other people…I will gladly give up my “power” I repeat “ “ to you and see what you do with it tough guy.

I'm parodying your ridiculous practice of referring to yourself as a "sheepdog" and virtually everyone else as a "sheep" implicitly.

Frankly, I'm sick of your rhetoric. My field is construction. Many trades in construction have much higher fatality rates than police officers. So do truck drivers, cab drivers, fisherman, lumberjacks, pizza delivery guys, pilots, and many others. So please spare us the garbage about how police are putting their lives on the lines as "sheepdogs" to protect the helpless "sheep."

Your comment is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with what i said, or have ever implied. You are turning this thing around in a different direction, please quote when I ever said something that is relevant to what you just posted?

And yes I do reffer myself as a "sheepdog" I also call our military people the same and a lot of civilians I come in contact with as "sheepdogs". This has nothing to do with ONLY Police. Im still waiting to hear why this is relevant?

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

Guys, im all pro gun but just saying that if someone has a gun on them that it would make a difference is not true.....

(1) the facts/data show otherwise. Citizens using a gun to stop a crime, etc happens between 700,000 times per year (FBI's data) to 2.5 million times per year (Klecks data) and there are many many every day examples of citizens doing that. For example:

Armed Citizen

It's impossible to know exactly if someone there being armed may have stopped this person in this specific situation, but the alternative is a non starter.

(2) your story is interesting and all that, but it has zero bearing on the issue. If a gun was of no value, tell me, would you have felt better not having one? My best bud is one of the most decorated cops in the major PD in my area, and has been in 8 guns fights, having worked the gang units, RRT team, etc, and walked away from them all. He's told me that gun was the only thing that stood between him and death. Citizens have the same right to at the very least, die fighting, at the best, stop the BG in his tracks, which, as already stated, does happen by every day citizens WAY more often than most people realize because the media never covers it.

(3) I know a lot of cops, and work with a lot of cops. And to a man (sorry, don't know any female cops) they are straight up good people. I do honor and appreciate your service, but I don't agree with you here.

Stay safe officer.

Originally Posted by WillBrink

(1) the facts/data show otherwise. Citizens using a gun to stop a crime, etc happens between 700,000 times per year (FBI's data) to 2.5 million times per year (Klecks data) and there are many many every day examples of citizens doing that. For example:

Armed Citizen

It's impossible to know exactly if someone there being armed may have stopped this person in this specific situation, but the alternative is a non starter.

(2) your story is interesting and all that, but it has zero bearing on the issue. If a gun was of no value, tell me, would you have felt better not having one? My best bud is one of the most decorated cops in the major PD in my area, and has been in 8 guns fights, having worked the gang units, RRT team, etc, and walked away from them all. He's told me that gun was the only thing that stood between him and death. Citizens have the same right to at the very least, die fighting, at the best, stop the BG in his tracks, which, as already stated, does happen by every day citizens WAY more often than most people realize because the media never covers it.

(3) I know a lot of cops, and work with a lot of cops. And to a man (sorry, don't know any female cops) they are straight up good people. I do honor and appreciate your service, but I don't agree with you here.

Stay safe officer.

And that is perfectly fine, i respect what you think (you also sound like you could be a better shot than me, im not all that into guns, but i am forced to shot once a month to stay above 92% on my qual).......I never said im right about it all, this is just the way im wired and this is my way of thinking, and I guess you proved me wrong..........Again, im no different form anyone else im a breakable man just like all, i just want to educate people who have never walked in these heavy boots that we have to walk in every day.

Originally Posted by QuestionGuy

And that is perfectly fine, i respect what you think (you also sound like you could be a better shot than me, im not all that into guns, but i am forced to shot once a month to stay above 92% on my qual).......I never said im right about it all, this is just the way im wired and this is my way of thinking, and I guess you proved me wrong..........Again, im no different form anyone else im a breakable man just like all, i just want to educate people who have never walked in these heavy boots that we have to walk in every day.

I think the middle ground here is, you are trying to say a gun will not solve every problem, someone being there with a gun does not always stop such an event, and guns take skill to be proficient with, and when this type of things happens, it's not like TV.

I agree with all the above, and I try to pound that reality into people's heads, but at the same time, criminals (as you know) use guns all the time with essentially no training, and given the choice of being in a "gun free zone" - which tells everyone around there is no one there to stop you should you want to kill a lot of people - vs. being around honest citizens who can fight back, I will take the latter every time.

You must be in a small PD to be made to shoot monthly. Boston PD for example, it's twice per year. 100rnd per qual. That's total rounds down range of 200rnd per year! That's all...

People watch too much TV and think most cops are "highly trained" with a firearm. Unless they put the effort in on their own time, and or are on the RRT/SWAT teams, the vast majority of regular shooting citizens can outshoot most LEOs.

But, paper targets don't shoot back, and LEOs are paid to run toward the sound of gun fire, not away from it, and that's one of many reasons I have such respect for those of the thin blue line and do the work that I do.

I put more rds down range per week then what most PDs require per year, and I find most LEOs show amazingly little interest in shooting beyond what's required of them by their PDs. Not all of them (shot in an IDPA match today actually, and two guys on my squad were State Troopers, and they were good shots...) of course, but most.

Originally Posted by WillBrink

criminals (as you know) use guns all the time with essentially no training, and given the choice of being in a "gun free zone" - which tells everyone around there is no one there to stop you should you want to kill a lot of people - vs. being around honest citizens who can fight back, I will take the latter every time.

Good point. Knowing that there would likely be armed citizens in the area willing to defend their own lives and the lives of others would actually probably be a good deterrent to these shooting sprees. Especially when you consider that after the attack is carried out, in many cases the perp always seems so hell bent on taking his own life. Like they don't want somebody else to kill them. It has to be suicide.

But these shooting sprees are usually rare (past few weeks an exception). Do we want people walking around everywhere with guns in attempt to prevent mass murders and other crimes that we would otherwise have to rely on police for?

Originally Posted by Goodfella9783

Good point. Knowing that there would likely be armed citizens in the area willing to defend their own lives and the lives of others would actually probably be a good deterrent to these shooting sprees. Especially when you consider that after the attack is carried out, in many cases the perp always seems so hell bent on taking his own life. Like they don't want somebody else to kill them. It has to be suicide.

But these shooting sprees are usually rare (past few weeks an exception). Do we want people walking around everywhere with guns in attempt to prevent mass murders and other crimes that we would otherwise have to rely on police for?

Yes, yes I do. Did you know that in every state where right to carry laws were passed, crime goes down? Why do you think that is? Rely on police? They show up after a crime, they very rarely prevent the crime. In terms of the basics on the topic, here's a good article for you if it's a topic that interests you:

THE COLD, HARD FACTS ABOUT GUNS
Chicago Tribune, May 8, 1998,
By John R. Lott Jr., the John M. Olin law and economics fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law

America may indeed be obsessed with guns, but much of what passes as fact simply isn't true. The news media's focus on only tragic outcomes, while ignoring tragic events that were avoided, may be responsible for some misimpressions. Horrific events like the recent shooting in Arkansas receive massive news coverage, as they should, but the 2.5 million times each year that people use guns defensively are never discussed--including cases where public shootings are stopped before they happen.

Unfortunately, these misimpressions have real costs for people's safety. Many myths needlessly frighten people and prevent them from defending themselves most effectively.

Myth No. 1: When one is attacked, passive behavior is the safest approach.

The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey reports that the probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller: offering no resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than resisting with a gun.

Myth No. 2: Friends or relatives are the most likely killers. The myth is usually based on two claims: 1) 58 percent of murder victims are killed by either relatives or acquaintances and 2) anyone could be a murderer.

With the broad definition of "acquaintances" used in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most victims are indeed classified as knowing their killer. However, what is not made clear is that acquaintance murder primarily includes drug buyers killing drug pushers, cabdrivers killed by first-time customers, gang members killing other gang members, prostitutes killed by their clients, and so on. Only one city, Chicago, reports a precise breakdown on the nature of acquaintance killings: between 1990 and 1995 just 17 percent of murder victims were either family members, friends, neighbors and/or roommates.

Murderers also are not your average citizen. For example, about 90 percent of adult murderers have already had a criminal record as an adult. Murderers are overwhelmingly young males with low IQs and who have difficult times getting along with others. Furthermore, unfortunately, murder is disproportionately committed against blacks and by blacks.

Myth No. 3: The United States has such a high murder rate because Americans own so many guns.

There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's. Finland and Sweden have very different gun ownership rates, but very similar murder rates. Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's. When one studies all countries rather than just a select few as is usually done, there is absolutely no relationship between gun ownership and murder.

Myth No. 4: If law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed handguns, people will end up shooting each other after traffic accidents as well as accidentally shooting police officers.

Millions of people currently hold concealed handgun permits, and some states have issued them for as long as 60 years. Yet, only one permit holder has ever been arrested for using a concealed handgun after a traffic accident and that case was ruled as self-defense. The type of person willing to go through the permitting process is extremely law-abiding. In Florida, almost 444,000 licenses were granted from 1987 to 1997, but only 84 people have lost their licenses for felonies involving firearms. Most violations that lead to permits being revoked involve accidentally carrying a gun into restricted areas, like airports or schools. In Virginia, not a single permit holder has committed a violent crime. Similarly encouraging results have been reported for Kentucky, Nevada, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas and Tennessee (the only other states where information is available).

Myth No. 5: The family gun is more likely to kill you or someone you know than to kill in self-defense.

The studies yielding such numbers never actually inquired as to whose gun was used in the killing. Instead, if a household owned a gun and if a person in that household or someone they knew was shot to death while in the home, the gun in the household was blamed. In fact, virtually all the killings in these studies were committed by guns brought in by an intruder. No more than four percent of the gun deaths can be attributed to the homeowner's gun. The very fact that most people were killed by intruders also surely raises questions about why they owned guns in the first place and whether they had sufficient protection.

How many attacks have been deterred from ever occurring by the potential victims owning a gun? My own research finds that more concealed handguns, and increased gun ownership generally, unambiguously deter murders, robbery, and aggravated assaults. This is also in line with the well-known fact that criminals prefer attacking victims that they consider weak.

These are only some of the myths about guns and crime that drive the public policy debate. We must not lose sight of the ultimate question: Will allowing law-abiding citizens to own guns save lives? The evidence strongly indicates that it does.

Originally Posted by WillBrink

Rely on police? They show up after a crime, they very rarely prevent the crime.

I worded that bad. I meant rely on police not only to prevent but to react to with the use of deadly force. In other words, do we want people everywhere with guns as means to prevent mass shootings that we'd otherwise have to rely on police to respond to quickly and efficiently.

Good article btw.

Originally Posted by Goodfella9783

I worded that bad. I meant rely on police not only to prevent but to react to with the use of deadly force. In other words, do we want people everywhere with guns as means to prevent mass shootings that we'd otherwise have to rely on police to respond to quickly and efficiently.

Errr, the many dead people shows us quite clearly police can't and don't respond quickly and efficiently to these events. They simply can't. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away...after the VT Tech event, a professor I know wrote this in an email:

A terrible tragedy. I know, I teach on college campus.

Once he starts to act, the only thing that can stop a single, psychotic killer who is willing to die is the rapid delivery of counter fire by whoever is near. Cop, civilian, it doesn't matter who or their job status. The more people who are nearby and capable of delivering return fire, the fewer and less serious the injuries (there's criminological data on this).

Virginia Tech. is a "gun free" zone guaranteeing that the psychotic killer had the only gun. He came prepared. He waited until there were no police in sight and then commenced his murderous acts certain that he would encounter no effective resistance. And , he didn't.

Twenty-one innocent dead because there was no one capable of fighting back. All they could do was cower or run.


Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M., Hamline University School of Law

Originally Posted by Goodfella9783

Good article btw.

Glad you enjoyed it.

LITTLE GUN HISTORY

I Thought you might appreciate this . . .

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From
929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917,
1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to
1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable
to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952,
20 million political dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to
1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979,
300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to
1977, one million educated people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- -------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th
Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia
were forced by new law to surrender 640,381?? personal
firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program
costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
List of 7 items:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are
now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens
turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still
possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed
drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals
now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a
loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such
monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully
ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian
experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear
politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and
property and , yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only
the law-abiding citizens.

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please
remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'.

Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America
because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

In Red Dawn the whole cool thing was that even in Bumfuck, Nowhere teens could take up arms and fight for freedom. No one will ever take that right away from an American as long as I live. I would die trying to ensure that every single syllable of our constitution; those prophetic declarations of our forefathers, men who had pondered upon the ruin of nations before; be upheld for my generation and generations that may someday witness the expansion of our great nation to other planetary bodies and beyond.........

Originally Posted by Burner02

LITTLE GUN HISTORY

[FONT=Arial] I Thought you might appreciate this . . .

Well, we hadn't really focused on gun control per se in the thread, but I suppose it was only a matter of time...

in a way there was...the 'gun-free-zone' mentions