Thread: Masculinity and Social Class

Sociology is one of my favorite subjects. There are 100s of books and research papers dedicated to your question. I could type out 100 pages and still only scratch the service.

I read a lot of sociology books too. I'm an urban planning major so I had to take classes on it and I've been reading about it independently ever since.

Have you ever read any of Richard Sennett's books? He doesn't talk about gender roles or masculinity/femininity but his books are really stimulating. He talks about cities, labor/capitalism, craftsmanship, stuff like that.

Please try and scratch the surface in one post

Interesting topic.

I crawled out of poverty, drug and alcohol addiction and so on in my own family, spent the first 25 years of my life as an uneducated adult, and then went back to school where I pursued studies related to mathematics and science.

It was the first time in my life where the only thing I was judged on was my performance on exams.

I really noticed the difference when I walked across the campus to do my minor, in Psychology.
In Mathematics, most of my instructors and colleagues were male. In Psych, most were female.

The psych students were better-dressed, wore makeup, looked fashionable.
I would show up in sweat pants with paint stains, my hair unbrushed and with no makeup.

In Math, nobody seemed to care at ALL what any of us looked like - we were judged entirely on our performance. The discipline was brutally hard, at least to me, and we were all sweating bullets to get through it. Psych was so easy in comparison - do the reading, show up for class, get an A.

As unencumbered as I was with appearance back then, what struck me was the realization that there were still men who were interested in me - and that these men were of higher status in general; more educated, of higher intelligence, etc.

When I was waiting tables and had no education, I didn't seem to attract the same "type", although to be fair, I wasn't exposed to as many academics back then either.

The observations on "obvious" markers of masculinity with social rank stand for obvious markers of femininity as well. My appearance mattered more to me as an uneducated person than it did once I was educated.

Then I got into bodybuilding and shot that all to Hell anyway LOL!

Surface-dwelling FTW!!!

Originally Posted by Built

I would show up in sweat pants with paint stains, my hair unbrushed and with no makeup.

i'm not a man but i see this as very attractive. i'm a people watcher and it's so cool to see a woman focused on the task at hand, not trying to be a show piece, interested in the world instead of expecting it to be interested in her. that is really when her inner and her natural beauty can take your breath away. literally.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

I think this is an interesting subject and you don't hear too many people talk about it. I think there's differences in the way people from different socio-economic backgrounds view masculinity. These are gross generalizations and some of them obviously cross barriers but these are things that come to my mind if I had to categorize 'em (both the good and the bad):

Source of masculinity for lower class men: courage, physical intimidation, criminal record, material things, exploiting women for money/sex, adapting easily to new situations, charisma, outgoing personality.

Source of masculinity for middle and upper class men / educated men: dedication to craft/skill, providing for and protecting family, dressing well, high self esteem, working hard, independence, random hookups (if you're younger), intellectual narcissism, arrogance, leadership, making people feel empowered-sometimes in a manipulative way.

Do you think there is a big difference in the way different classes of people view masculinity?

I grew up in the inner city and have a white trash family lol - but I went on to a great university and noticed these differences right away while in college surrounded by so many suburban middle and upper class people. I've always had diverse friends but now it's something that's very clear to me. I think it's a bigger issue than people realize because masculinity is about identity and ideology.

A lot of people generally view men who are more 'cultured' or educated as less masculine. I don't think that's the case; I think it's just redefined.

I know this is a strange subject to bring up but it's a bodybuilding forum for christs sake so what the hell.

wouldn't even the lower class think a criminal record or violence made a man not manly but weak and unable to behave like an adult? the lower class example sounds like someone to look down upon unworthy of any respect at all.

Originally Posted by Built

Interesting topic.

I crawled out of poverty, drug and alcohol addiction and so on in my own family, spent the first 25 years of my life as an uneducated adult, and then went back to school where I pursued studies related to mathematics and science.

It was the first time in my life where the only thing I was judged on was my performance on exams.

I really noticed the difference when I walked across the campus to do my minor, in Psychology.
In Mathematics, most of my instructors and colleagues were male. In Psych, most were female.

The psych students were better-dressed, wore makeup, looked fashionable.
I would show up in sweat pants with paint stains, my hair unbrushed and with no makeup.

In Math, nobody seemed to care at ALL what any of us looked like - we were judged entirely on our performance. The discipline was brutally hard, at least to me, and we were all sweating bullets to get through it. Psych was so easy in comparison - do the reading, show up for class, get an A.

As unencumbered as I was with appearance back then, what struck me was the realization that there were still men who were interested in me - and that these men were of higher status in general; more educated, of higher intelligence, etc.

When I was waiting tables and had no education, I didn't seem to attract the same "type", although to be fair, I wasn't exposed to as many academics back then either.

The observations on "obvious" markers of masculinity with social rank stand for obvious markers of femininity as well. My appearance mattered more to me as an uneducated person than it did once I was educated.

Then I got into bodybuilding and shot that all to Hell anyway LOL!

Surface-dwelling FTW!!!

Thanks a lot for your input. It's nice to get a female's perspective. It's interesting that you think the same traits can be used to describe femininity. I've never looked at it that way.

Originally Posted by Little Wing

wouldn't even the lower class think a criminal record or violence made a man not manly but weak and unable to behave like an adult? the lower class example sounds like someone to look down upon unworthy of any respect at all.

Not really. Of course there are exceptions but the environment I grew up in promoted that sort of primal hypermasculinity. I think a lot of women even reinforce it (that isn't to say that men aren't guilty for reinforcing female perceptions of femininity, either). Jail/priston time, stories about how you kicked someone's @ss, selling drugs, are all something to be glorified. Basically anything that will give you a fix for an adrenaline addiction. My older brothers are still like that. They basically look at me as a punk college boy. Of course 5 years from now they will be asking me for jobs lolol

Not the same traits, but I think I know what you're getting at - the over-exaggerated caricature of gender-specific markers of sexuality. And yes, this part seems ubiquitously primal.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

Of course 5 years from now they will be asking me for jobs lolol

that's being a man

Originally Posted by Built

Not the same traits, but I think I know what you're getting at - the over-exaggerated caricature of gender-specific markers of sexuality. And yes, this part seems ubiquitously primal.

I'm curious, how do you define your own femininity? That's you in the avatar with the really ripped abs? As someone dedicated to bodybuiding do you consider yourself a woman with more masculine qualities or are you somehow channeling your own femininity? Or do you express your femininity with other activities, traits, etc?

I don't hate 'feminists' but something about the different waves of feminism have struck me: They seem to be more concerned with saying women can do equally what men do (belittling gender constructs), but also seem to try to take the moral highground over men. They seem like they deal with personal empowerment issues (just as some men do as well - no doubt). I think capitalism promotes masculinity in everybody. It requires competition. Women can be competitive too, but on a primal level it's considered to be more of a man's trait. Women like Suzie Orman tell women that they should spend less time volunteering and more time making their own money. Ia always looked at that as a 'feminine' quality. Personally I want a woman that works and loves what she does, doesn't feel confined to the house with the kids (like the conservative model). But at the same time, how do those women embrace their femininity? The word 'feminism' implies that you're supposedly embracing your femininity. I consider my masculinity to be an important part of who I am; it seems like femininity would be equally important to women but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least in America, Canada, Europe, etc. Maybe it's because I'm a male and pay more attention to what is percieved as masculine.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

I'm curious, how do you define your own femininity?

Hmmm... interesting question. I'll have to think on that while I parse the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

That's you in the avatar with the really ripped abs?

Yep. My summer abs. They're backordered at the moment, but yes.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

As someone dedicated to bodybuiding do you consider yourself a woman with more masculine qualities or are you somehow channeling your own femininity? Or do you express your femininity with other activities, traits, etc?

Um... ? I really haven't given this much thought. Shit. I didn't know there would be a test...

Originally Posted by flashinglights

I don't hate 'feminists' but something about the different waves of feminism have struck me: They seem to be more concerned with saying women can do equally what men do (belittling gender constructs), but also seem to try to take the moral highground over men. They seem like they deal with personal empowerment issues (just as some men do as well - no doubt). I think capitalism promotes masculinity in everybody. It requires competition. Women can be competitive too, but on a primal level it's considered to be more of a man's trait. Women like Suzie Orman tell women that they should spend less time volunteering and more time making their own money.

I do both.

Originally Posted by flashinglights

Ia always looked at that as a 'feminine' quality. Personally I want a woman that works and loves what she does, doesn't feel confined to the house with the kids (like the conservative model). But at the same time, how do those women embrace their femininity?

I don't know. How do you embrace your masculinity? Has it been a conscious act?

Originally Posted by flashinglights

The word 'feminism' implies that you're supposedly embracing your femininity. I consider my masculinity to be an important part of who I am; it seems like femininity would be equally important to women but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least in America, Canada, Europe, etc. Maybe it's because I'm a male and pay more attention to what is percieved as masculine.

I'm more comfortable, generally, in the company of men. Men make sense to me - with men, I know where I stand. If a man sees me training and I'm wearing something tight and I look good, on some level, without saying anything or looking at me in any particular way, he wants to bang me. This doesn't make me feel special, and it doesn't make me angry. I just understand that's what he is. I accept this reality in the same way as I accept gravity - it just "is". I don't give it any thought, and it's certainly not something I ever have to concern myself with when I train. I hear women complaining about not wanting to go onto the weight floor because of this and I just think it's sad that they don't understand this simple truth about men and accept that there's nothing inherently wrong with it - if you accept it as normal you can figure out how to be reactive, or better yet proactive about setting up your own boundaries. No biggie.

I studied male-dominated subjects (my undergrad is in Math/Stats, my graduate work is Operations Research), I have written on two predominately male bodybuilding boards... other than a male friend of mine who taught me how lift back in 2001 when I started lifting I have trained myself, and usually by myself. Hubby only got into lifting when I started getting too strong for him (okay, I pinned him and he was in the gym I think the next day! Took him all of three months to get stronger than it took me two years to achieve, of course. )

It's actually funny you should bring this whole issue to light, because I was just thinking about something interesting about physical culture: women in this sport don't generally compare ourselves to men.

It doesn't trouble me in the slightest that a man can become so much stronger than I can, or that he sees so much more muscle-gain than I shall ever achieve. It's not that I don't want it either, as a bodybuilder there is simply never "too much" muscle, we never look at ourselves and say "My GOD, what have I done???", yanno?

In my mind's eye, it would be a truly fascinating experience to train and build as a young man, where the strength gains and the size just pile on - as long as you keep the food coming, of course.

<Shakes tiny fist in rage - you hear me all you "hardgainers" out there? EAT, DAMMIT!>

To be a woman in this sport is to fully accept - without bitterness or reservation - the tremendous disparity in potential for strength and size.

I love watching my male friends get strong and big; I love knowing how to help them achieve their goals - I get to be a part of the process, and it's very rewarding to be able to do that. It's also very empowering to know that I've earned enough trust and respect in this area that men sometimes come to me for help in achieving their goals. I mean, it makes sense - if I can do what I have managed as a middle-aged women with injuries, imagine what I can do to help a young male with all that testosterone and potential? I've been quite charmed that so many have managed to look past the fact that they're getting training tips from someone who could be their (jacked, internet) mommy!

Face it - we don't all get to experience all things, and I have been given more than most. I'm not about to complain about what I am, and I love being female. I'd hate to be a man. I'd miss being able to wear pretty clothes, makeup, high heels... I mean, some men do this too, but for me to do it is gender-appropriate. I get to feel like it's okay for me to do these things.

I often quip I'm really a homosexual man trapped in a woman's body and really, REALLY digging it - and although it sounds glib, more than a few of my male friends have acknowledged that this model seems to fit me better than any other.

Heh - George Box's famous line "all models are wrong. Some are useful" fits nicely here, too. I'm not a homosexual man. I'm not a typical woman either.

<shrugs>

I'm just me.

I hear women complaining about not wanting to go onto the weight floor because of this and I just think it's sad that they don't understand this simple truth about men and accept that there's nothing inherently wrong with it - if you accept it as normal you can figure out how to be reactive, or better yet proactive about setting up your own boundaries. No biggie.

Thank you!!

I got into an argument with some female friends over this! They were complaining about men staring at them in the gym or trying to talk to them while they are working out. I'm sure that's constant locker room talk. I don't get it. If something is aesthetically arousing, we can't help but look. I think they were probably exaggerating about these alleged gym stalkers. The irony is that the reward for that kind of personal development in the gym is the positive attention you get. Us guys wish we could get attention as easily as those women.

Hey, I don't get it either. To me, this is like being pissed that the sky is blue. Damned sky. Why can't it just be some other colour?

Women and men are socialized differently. We do this to our children on purpose, and then proceed to spend our lives being pissed at each other's responses to social situations.

As a logical person, I find this rather perplexing.

But then I go lift heavy things and put it out of my silly little head...

Originally Posted by Built

<Shakes tiny fist in rage - you hear me all you "hardgainers" out there? EAT, DAMMIT!>

To be a woman in this sport is to fully accept - without bitterness or reservation - the tremendous disparity in potential for strength and size.

I've been quite charmed that so many have managed to look past the fact that they're getting training tips from someone who could be their (jacked, internet) mommy!

Face it - we don't all get to experience all things, and I have been given more than most.

I often quip I'm really a homosexual man trapped in a woman's body and really, REALLY digging it - and although it sounds glib, more than a few of my male friends have acknowledged that this model seems to fit me better than any other.

Nicely put together, may be we should title it as "Quotes By - BUILT"

IN the stages of my life from slums to practically mansions I noticed that the lower class would go straight to physical violence thus men who looked like they could fuck you up seemed the most masculine, then in the upper class the man who could bark the loudest seemed more masculine.... Having grown up around both I find myself immune to either, I can ignore a person trying to ruffle my feathers and anyone yelling at me just goes in one ear and out the other. For me it seemed that if you could rise above either that would make you a man of all men. I credit my father with this, I'd seen him have someone yell at him so bad that my fist were balled up to the point my fingernails dug into the skin, yet he stood their staring through the man like he didn't exist and at the end the barker looked like an immature child; then I witnessed my father have another fire a gun at us, with 20+ guns in our house plus years of experience hunting and in the military he could have easily have settled that with a bullet. Instead the man ended up in prison and his children were taken to their mother without having to see their father brains explode........

Originally Posted by maniclion

if you could rise above either that would make you a man of all men.

absolutely.