Clomiphene citrate is as good as HRT

**Prince** · 05-30-2010, 10:01 AM

Clomiphene citrate is as good as HRT – and a lot cheaper
by Matt Cahill

Cheaper than topical HRT gels

Clomiphene citrate is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) marketed under the brand name Clomid. Originally designed as a female fertility drug, Clomid is regularly used by bodybuilders upon cessation of a steroid cycle as part of their post cycle therapy (PCT). This is done because Clomid inhibits the effect of estrogen in the pituitary thereby short circuiting the natural negative feedback loop that controls gonadotropin release. The result of this is an increase in Luteinizing hormone (LH) which is a hormone that tells the testes to produce testosterone. Clomid also inhibits the effect of estrogen in breast tissue, limiting the potential for gynecomastia (male boobs). For this reason some bodybuilders also use Clomid during a cycle to avoid this, but more often than not another SERM called Nolvadex, or aromatase inhibitors such as Arimidex are used. But the general take-home message is that Clomid raises testosterone and antagonizes the effects of estrogen. A previous study from 2005 has shown that use of Clomid can pretty much correct androgen deficiency when given to hypogonadal men at a dose of 25mg/day for three months. While this gave the men normal blood hormone readings, I’ve also seen several cases on some message boards somewhat recently where normal men have used Clomid and noticed their testosterone levels increase significantly to supraphysiological levels. One guy even claimed that he was now in the shape of his life thanks to Clomid. And I guess this segues nicely into this updates research study.

Some good folk from Rush University Medical Center in Chicago have investigated the comparative effects of Clomid with typical hormone replacement therapy (HRT) in the form of Androgel or Testim (both topical gels). They decided to assess the contrast “with regard to biochemical and clinical efficacy and cost.” I found the latter both intriguing and somewhat refreshing. Over one hundred men were reviewed with just over half receiving Clomid at 50mg every other day (EOD) and the rest either Androgel or Testim, both dosed at five grams per day. All the men in the review were determined as hypogonadal which they determined as being testosterone levels below 300 ng/mL. The effects from both treatments after several months of treatment were almost identical with the Clomid users reporting an average testosterone level of 573 ng/dL and the HRT users measuring in at 553 ng/dL. But here’s the interesting bit, as the cost of medication is rarely factored into most clinical studies. The researchers calculated the monthly cost for each drug at the above dosing as follows: Testim - $270, Androgel - $265, and Clomid $83. Yep, you read that right, Clomid is as effective as HRT and clocks in at around 30% of the price.

Clomid is, however, not completely side effect free. While any dose can give rise to abdominal pains, higher doses in the 150mg/day range can lead to blurring of vision. It is also not entirely uncommon for some bodybuilders to report feeling overly emotional when using Clomid, although this is typically only during PCT. Ultimately, however, I do not envisage any problems if you follow the dosing scheme from the study of 50mg EOD.

So in summary, Clomid is as effective as HRT gels, taking it EOD is a damn sight lot easier than applying a topical gel daily, and the cost is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Source: Taylor F, Levine L. Clomiphene citrate and testosterone gel replacement therapy for male hypogonadism: efficacy and treatment cost. J Sex Med. 2010 Jan;7(1 Pt 1):269-76.

http://www.steroidtimes.com/clomiphe...t-cheaper/2010

**MDR** · 05-30-2010, 10:23 AM

Glad to hear it-Clomid has always been my choice.

**Roaddkingg** · 05-30-2010, 11:36 AM

Interesting read Prince thank you for sharing. This raises a question for me and perhaps you can help. I start PCT in a few days and am planning on clomid and nolvadex. The clomid I planned on 100mgs for the first week and then another three weeks with just 50mgs. The nolvadex I was going to do 20mgs per day for four weeks followed by a fifth week of just 10mgs to taper off. Question is this....from the sounds of the article it seems it would be benificial for me to continue on the clomid after my scheduled PCT at say 50mgs EOD for a period of weeks or even months if I wanted and it would have a great effect on raising my test. Is this your assessment? If thats the case then we could run it between cycles perhaps along with a natural test booster and we would be good to go getting ready for a new cycle.

**Prince** · 05-30-2010, 11:50 AM

I don't really do PCT, I have been on HRT for over 10 years now. I use clomid if I feel any gyno coming on when I "blast".

**Roaddkingg** · 05-30-2010, 12:03 PM

Thanks for your imput Prince. Perhaps someone else can chime in and see if my assessment makes sence. Where are ya heavy?

**MDR** · 05-30-2010, 12:27 PM

In my opinion this is not a good idea. I run Clomid post-cycle for four weeks and then give my body some time to recover without anything for awhile after PCT. My feeling is that if you are going to cycle on and off, the period in-between cycles should be "clean" in order for things to return to normal. Otherwise, why not just stay on HRT. There are negative sides with everything-Clomid included.

**Silver_Back** · 05-30-2010, 07:56 PM

So if I run 100mgs of Clomid ED will that up my Testosterone to decent levels?

How much Test would I need to inject to = 100mgs Clomid ED?

**jmorrison** · 05-30-2010, 08:26 PM

Facinating Prince. Great info!

**Roaddkingg** · 05-30-2010, 09:57 PM

Thats kinda what I was thinking but I just thought I'd throw it out there for some opinions. Being clean in between cycles is best I'm sure. Just was curious.

**juggernaut** · 05-30-2010, 10:05 PM

Thanks! Good stuff!

**heavyiron** · 05-30-2010, 10:27 PM

Clomid raises circulating estradiol quite a bit, I would hold off on using it alone for androgen treatment.

**Roaddkingg** · 05-30-2010, 11:12 PM

Thanks heavy. I knew you were lurking some where.

**juggernaut** · 05-31-2010, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Clomid raises circulating estradiol quite a bit, I would hold off on using it alone for androgen treatment.

what would you suggest for basic HRT?

**heavyiron** · 05-31-2010, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by juggernaut

what would you suggest for basic HRT?

200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.

**Silver_Back** · 05-31-2010, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.

What if I were to combine Testim %1 and Clomid? Would that "up" my test or just the same as using one agent?

**klc9100** · 05-31-2010, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.

that's what my hrt consists of (200mg cyp / pharm grade) weekly. how much AI would need to be ran with that, heavy? i asked my doctor about and she looked at me like i had 2 heads and told me i didn;t need to worry about it.

**heavyiron** · 05-31-2010, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Saney

What if I were to combine Testim %1 and Clomid? Would that "up" my test or just the same as using one agent?

Yes but your circulating estradiol will be high.

**heavyiron** · 05-31-2010, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by klc9100

that's what my hrt consists of (200mg cyp / pharm grade) weekly. how much AI would need to be ran with that, heavy? i asked my doctor about and she looked at me like i had 2 heads and told me i didn;t need to worry about it.

Adex at 0.5mg 3-4 times weekly should bring E2 around 25-30pg/ml and get free T high.

**Built** · 05-31-2010, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.

It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.

Hubby's on 150mg pinned twice a week and he's well above the high end of normal - and has to donate blood to keep his red blood count down.

**juggernaut** · 05-31-2010, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Built

It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.

Does that mean the boys will be shut off at the rate that heavy suggested?

**Silver_Back** · 05-31-2010, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Yes but your circulating estradiol will be high.

What would be some side effects of higher levels of estradiol circulating around in a male?

**Built** · 05-31-2010, 12:37 PM

Prostate and gyno come to mind. Elevated SHBG also, which reduces free bioavailable test.

**Built** · 05-31-2010, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

200mg cypionate weekly with a small dose of aromasin or adex. This will put total T and free T at the high end of the range in most males.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Does that mean the boys will be shut off at the rate that heavy suggested?

Anything at or above full replacement will do this.

Below full replacement, shut down still occurs but not totally.

Interestingly, published research suggests that at 25mg per week, there is no shutdown in eugonadal males - which to me suggests that one could feasibly "fly under the radar" with a very small dose of test. Most here probably aren't interested in such a small increase, but an increase is an increase and there would still be some positive effect, however small.

I seem to recall reading that the oral micronized undecanoate capsules can be taken in such a way as to avoid shutdown, but I'm feeling very very lazy at the moment. Perhaps someone has that study available and will post it up.

**Silver_Back** · 05-31-2010, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Richard Gears

Knockers! and a sudden urge to jam large pieces of furniture up your ass. Have you experienced any of these sides?

I've had wet dreams about Five Guys. Should I be worried? Am I in trouble?

**heavyiron** · 05-31-2010, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Saney

What would be some side effects of higher levels of estradiol circulating around in a male?

With the Clomid no gyno worries however you will have the chance of water retention which can cause high BP and then there is female fat pattern distribution and possible libido issues.

**heavyiron** · 05-31-2010, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Built

It will put total and free above the high end of the range for most males. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just sayin'.

Hubby's on 150mg pinned twice a week and he's well above the high end of normal - and has to donate blood to keep his red blood count down.

That would depend on the day tested.

**Built** · 05-31-2010, 07:32 PM

Exactly. Published data test the day before a weekly IM shot, and 125mg per week put most men in the upper half of the range - in other words, a 125mg weekly shot keeps a man at or above the midrange of normal right through to the end of the week. The day or two following administration of that weekly shot, he is likely to go supraphysiologic - or close to supraphysiologic.

This is an important distinction to make for those who are planning to have blood drawn for testing.

**juggernaut** · 06-01-2010, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Built

Exactly. Published data test the day before a weekly IM shot, and 125mg per week put most men in the upper half of the range - in other words, a 125mg weekly shot keeps a man at or above the midrange of normal right through to the end of the week. The day or two following administration of that weekly shot, he is likely to go supraphysiologic - or close to supraphysiologic.

This is an important distinction to make for those who are planning to have blood drawn for testing.

With the type of dosing you're recommending, there would little to no sides, am I right? Now will that include the benefit of increased recovery, working boys, increased protein uptake?

**Built** · 06-01-2010, 12:49 PM

Good question.

The medical model for HRT is to dose in such a way as to keep the patient above the low limit of normal throughout the dosing interval. This usually translates to one shot of 100-200mg testosterone every two to three weeks to begin, titrating upward until "success", that is to say until the patient remains above the low level of normal all the way up to the next shot.

This is hardly optimal. Dosing sufficiently high to ensure remaining above the lower bound by the end of the second week means levels will be supraphysiologic for part of the interval, and too low for comfort toward the end. It is at these extremities where side effects show - too high, and there is excess conversion to DHT and estrogen. Too low, and the patient experiences lethargy, depression, and ED.

Published work suggests 125mg pinned weekly keeps the patient within the normal physiologic range; in fact it keeps most men in the top half of normal for the whole week. 150mg pinned weekly puts him at or above the top end of normal for about half the week.

Pinning 150mg twice a week solves this problem, keeping levels right at the top of normal throughout the week.

Hubby has seen profound gains from this strategy. The improvement in his mood and physique have been remarkable. Virtually zero sides - the only thing that has happened is his red blood count is slightly above range; in response, he donates blood regularly.

**juggernaut** · 06-01-2010, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Built

Good question.

The medical model for HRT is to dose in such a way as to keep the patient above the low limit of normal throughout the dosing interval. This usually translates to one shot of 100-200mg testosterone every two to three weeks to begin, titrating upward until "success", that is to say until the patient remains above the low level of normal all the way up to the next shot.

This is hardly optimal. Dosing sufficiently high to ensure remaining above the lower bound by the end of the second week means levels will be supraphysiologic for part of the interval, and too low for comfort toward the end. It is at these extremities where side effects show - too high, and there is excess conversion to DHT and estrogen. Too low, and the patient experiences lethargy, depression, and ED.

Published work suggests 125mg pinned weekly keeps the patient within the normal physiologic range; in fact it keeps most men in the top half of normal for the whole week. 150mg pinned weekly puts him at or above the top end of normal for about half the week.

Pinning 150mg twice a week solves this problem, keeping levels right at the top of normal throughout the week.

Hubby has seen profound gains from this strategy. The improvement in his mood and physique have been remarkable. Virtually zero sides - the only thing that has happened is his red blood count is slightly above range; in response, he donates blood regularly.

I noticed a short bout of ED after going from a blast cycle to a cruise of 300mg of test sust a week. My strength continued, but I did notice a lack of desire and a Mr. Softee a couple of times. I also noticed it went away and everything is functioning properly now. Is this normal? I will eventually get down to HRT levels with sust, but is this the normal transition?
Also, as I get down to that lower area of mgs, should I use some clomid to counteract any issues to turn the boys back on or no?

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