Thread: Using T3 on a Bulking Cycle?

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

I have roughly 5 weeks left on cycle which will include Dbol/test and I'm not sure whether I should add T3 into the mix. I like the idea of leaning out but I want to add some serious muscle mass aswell.

Will T3 hinder my gains if dose correctly? Is there a dose that will target fat over muscle as long as my diet and training are in check?

This is my first cycle, should I wait and use it later of throw it in the mix now? I could do with some leaning out around the stomach area.


What would you guys recommend?

All help is would be appreciated.

You're not going to lean out if you just add the T3. It will only hinder your gains if your dose is too high and your protein is too low. 50mcgs is fine for a bulk.

Do you know how to taper off of it? I would recommend it but it seems you need to do some research before you screw yourself up. You know you're playing with your thyroid hormones and the chance for fat rebound is high if you don't know WTF you're doing.

Good luck.

Thanks CT, I'm finding it difficult to get good info on using this stuff and I realise it is potentually dangerous if used incorrectly.

What benefits should I expect to see by running it at 50mcgs and tapering off it correctly? I was counting on using clen which I had researched but that plan was foiled, now I'm running out of time as I know that I can only use T3 whist geared.

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

Thanks CT, I'm finding it difficult to get good info on using this stuff and I realise it is potentually dangerous if used incorrectly.

What benefits should I expect to see by running it at 50mcgs and tapering off it correctly? I was counting on using clen which I had researched but that plan was foiled, now I'm running out of time as I know that I can only use T3 whist geared.

The ONLY thing it's going to do for you is help keep any fat gains down. That's it. Now if you're dropping your calories and increasing your energt expendature that's a different story.

You will be a little bit warmer, but overall nothing really noticable.

T3 at 50mcg's daily is great on a bulk as it will increase nutrient uptake.


Cytomel~T3

Cytomel

(liothyronine sodium)

Cytomel is a synthetic T3 hormone. As you may already know, most natural T3 is not produced directly by your thyroid gland, but rather is converted from the T4 thyroid hormone. (8)

Cytomel T3 Weight Loss

Natural T3 is a regulator of the oxidative metabolism of energy producing substrates (food or stored substrates like fat, muscle, and glycogen) by the mitochondria. The mitochondria, as you will recall from your high school biology class, are usually referred to as the "cell´s powerhouses" because they produce ATP. Taking Cytomel (supplemental T3) greatly increases the uptake of nutrients into the mitochondria and also their oxidation rate (i.e. the rate at which they are burned for energy), by increasing the activities of the enzymes involved in the oxidative metabolic pathway. Everything is working harder, in other words, and more fuel is needed to supplement this increased work rate. Therefore, as you can guess, taking supplemental Cytomel will increase your body´s energy demands. And if you are in a hypocaloric state, you will begin burning even fatter primarily due to an increase in ATP. This increased ATP causes an increase in overall metabolic activity. (8)(9)This is exactly what we want, and is why we would be taking thyroid hormones like Cytomel in the first place. If you aren´t taking anabolic steroids with your Cytomel, however, your body may start to eat away muscle to provide energy for you to function. Remember mitochondria/ATP aren´t very picky, but they are very efficient. What I mean by this is that they will use whatever is on hand to generate energy for your body to continue functioning, fat, protein, glucose; it doesn´t matter to ATP, as long as there´s something to give them energy. Taking this drug will increase their need to find something to burn to create this energy. Ergo, if we aren´t taking anabolic steroids while taking our T3, we may lose too much muscle, especially while dieting.

Thus we can see that there are many advantages to using Cytomel to optimize our metabolic rate. It will also increase your body´s ability to synthesize protein, but from what I´ve seen personally, it acts as a catabolic when it isn´t administered with anabolic steroids. It is often the last thing added into a precontest diet, as it has a reputation for getting rid of the last few percentages of bodyfat& the "sticky fat" as it´s called in bodybuilding, the fat that just doesn´t want to leave you in the last few weeks of dieting. I think this is a poor use for this drug, and that it should be the first thing added into a diet to lose fat, as it will optimize your metabolic rate, which should be done at the outset of a diet, not after the calorie restriction has diminished your thyroid output and you are adding it in simply to replace what was lost.

Cytomel Side Effects

Unfortunately, in all of the studies I´ve seen, T3 also increased growth hormone production. (5)(6) As we all know, GH is also a strongly lipolytic compound, and this is another mechanism by which T3 may exert its effects, although I suspect this would only be a small percentage of its overall effects. This being the case, it has always been somewhat problematic to me to note that when GH and T3 are used together, the increased nitrogen retention normally found with GH use is negated. (7). If you were only using T3 and GH this may be a problem, but as I´ve already stated, you are going to need some anabolic agents if you are using T3. And as you have read previously, I recommend the veritable anabolic/lipolytic orgy of Insulin, T3, Anabolic Steroids, GH, and insulin, for 100% maximum results in minimal time.

On the brighter side, and of special note to dieters, administration of T3 has been shown to upregulate the beta 2 receptors in fat tissue. As you know clenbuterol and similar compounds downregulate this receptor, so using T3 with your clen will help stave off or reverse this downregulation. (1)(2)(3)(4). I would still recommend taking your benadryl every third week, though.

Going off cytomel

Finally, I would like to address the issue of recovery of your natural thyroid function after you stop taking cytomel. The horror stories of people on permanent thyroid replacement just aren´t true. I remember a few years ago, the rumor was circulating that the current Ms.Fitness had permanently shut off her thyroid gland, and was now fat and on thyroid hormone permanently. This is just another horror story based in nothing but conjecture and rumor, the studies I´ve looked at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of several YEARS (!) of thyroid replacement therapy (10)(11). I speculate that you can optimize your metabolic rate with Cytomel for 9-10 months a year, and just normalize yourself for 2-3 months (perhaps the winter, when you are mostly covered up), and then go right back on. Some people in the studies I read were on T3 for 30 years and recovered their natural thyroid function within short order. I think we can safely spend an athletic career using Cytomel 9-10 months out of the year, and just taking those few months off to normalize ourselves. Is this aggressive? Yes. Is this unsafe? NO.

References:

1. Catecholamines inhibit Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in rat skeletal muscle through beta(2)-adrenoceptors and cAMP. Navegantes LC, Resano NM, Migliorini RH, Kettelhut IC Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Sep;281(3):E449-54

2. Regulation of human adipocyte gene expression by thyroid hormone J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Feb;87(2):630-4 Viguerie N, Millet L, Avizou S, Vidal H, Larrouy D, Langin D.

3. Alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic receptor binding and action in gluteal adipocytes from patients with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism Metabolism 1987 Nov;36(11):1031-9 Richelsen B, Sorensen NS

4. Regulation of beta 1- and beta 3-adrenergic agonist-stimulated lipolytic response in hyperthyroid and hypothyroid rat white adipocytes Br J Pharmacol 2000 Feb;129(3):448-56. Germack R, Starzec A, Perret GY

5. Role of thyroid hormone in the control of growth hormone gene expression Braz J Med Biol Res 1994 May;27(5):1269-72. Volpato CB, Nunes MT.

6. Low-dose T(3) improves the bed rest model of simulated weightlessness in men and women. Am J Physiol 1999 Aug;277(2 Pt 1):E370-9 Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Zachwieja JJ, Bray GA, Windhauser MM, Wickersham PJ, Veldhuis JD, Tulley R, de la Bretonne JA.

7. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man. Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen. J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9

8. Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th Edition. John w. Hole jr.

9. Physicians Desk Reference

10. Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

11. Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN

i wouldn't use it on a bulk. a recomp for sure though

wk.1 - t3: 20/30/40/60/60/60/60
wk.2 - t3: 60
wk.3 - t3: 60
wk.4 - t3: 60/60/60/50/50/50/40
wk.5 - t3: 40/40/30/30/30/20/20
wk.6 - t3: 20/10/10/10/0/0/0

I'd throw clen into the mix too. That is my plan towards the end of my cycle. Since you only have 5 weeks left you'll need to adjust a bit. I'm going to do last 4 weeks of cycle + 2 weeks between last injection and PCT.

There are three options as I cannot find clen atm and I am looking for the best long term result.

1. I use T3 and accept that fact that it will hinder some muscle gain with the benefit of reduce fat gain.

2. I don't use T3 and risk losing more of my muscle gains during the cutting process.

3. I forget about the T3 and keep searching for clen. To be honest the idea of messing with my thyroid concerns me a little, how safe it this stuff if used correctly?

Heavy just gave the answers man. 50mcg ED

When Im dieting, I run it at 100mcg . . . . . natural production is 25mcg, so you wont be fkg with anything.

You're g2g imo

ok I'll give it a shot, thanks guys.

Originally Posted by GymRat707

wk.1 - t3: 20/30/40/60/60/60/60
wk.2 - t3: 60
wk.3 - t3: 60
wk.4 - t3: 60/60/60/50/50/50/40
wk.5 - t3: 40/40/30/30/30/20/20
wk.6 - t3: 20/10/10/10/0/0/0

I'd throw clen into the mix too. That is my plan towards the end of my cycle. Since you only have 5 weeks left you'll need to adjust a bit. I'm going to do last 4 weeks of cycle + 2 weeks between last injection and PCT.

You don't need to taper it up when you start, only when you're coming off.

IMHO, T3 does not have to be tapered off. The shock is a myth after reading more current studies.








/V

Dear BillHicksFan, nice Avatar!

I don't taper at all with 50mcg's of T3. Jump on as long as you like and jump off.

If I go higher I may taper.

Ok, I've started with a dose of 50 mcg 20 mins before breakfast.

Will I now need to eat more to achieve a successfull bulk or should I keep my diet the same and go by mirror plus scale weight?

During the past 8 weeks I have gained 6.5kg and managed to reduce bf%.

Thanks again for your input guys, I feel much more confident in taking this stuff now.

T3 and bulking I think depends a lot on the person, for me i have a slow metabolism and 100mcg of T3 hits me pretty hard and even just 50 is plenty for me if i'm just trying to recomp. I think for most people 50 on their bulk will be fine but if you are looking to stay lean then a clean diet and some cardio is more important than adding more drugs, I'm sure you know that just thought i'd throw it out there

Billhick, I don't mean to jack your thread. Mind if I ask a few Qs?

No problem man, ask away.

Fellas. I saw you said I don't need to go up and down with the dosing of t3 until I come off cycle, should I just do this last week? (tampering down)

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

Ok, I've started with a dose of 50 mcg 20 mins before breakfast.

Will I now need to eat more to achieve a successfull bulk or should I keep my diet the same and go by mirror plus scale weight?

During the past 8 weeks I have gained 6.5kg and managed to reduce bf%.

Thanks again for your input guys, I feel much more confident in taking this stuff now.

I would do this, but with calipers and a body tape. Scale weight doesn't tell the whole story.

Originally Posted by GymRat707

Fellas. I saw you said I don't need to go up and down with the dosing of t3 until I come off cycle, should I just do this last week? (tampering down)

There are different opinions. I think yes others think no. Read the thread and make your own decision.

Just a thought, but have you considered Triacanna ? Works as well as T3 without all the worries. VERY effective as well as user friendly. After come'n off T3 there may be somethin else you may want to consider. PCT for your thyroid (I never hear anyone talk bout that?????). That would be Gugglesterone. No suggestions or opinions. Just options that may be useful.

Good Luck
Peace and Love

Originally Posted by CT

I would do this, but with calipers and a body tape. Scale weight doesn't tell the whole story.

Yes I agree, I should have elaborated when I mentioned "scale weight." Calipers haven't worked well with me in the past as I used to be really fat. The skin around my stomach is fairly lose however now that I have put on some size and reduced bf% it looks a lot better. To look at me nobody would know I was ever fat however calipers give a different reading eveytime due to the lack of tightness in my skin.

Instead of using body tape I have judged my growth by the new clothes that I've needed to buy and the old clothes that no longer fit me.

Now that I've introduced T3 into the mix I'll start taking precise measurements using body tape.

Thanks again.

You may wish to reconsider the dosing. 50mcg is a replacement dose - dosing thyroid is a lot like dosing test in that there is a threshold under which you won't shut down endogenous thyroid, and a feedback mechanism where reduced TSH will slow your own thyroid hormone production.

Also, while true that triiodothyronine enhances protein synthesis, chronic elevation leads to insulin resistance, in much the same way as chronic hypocaloric dieting leads to insulin resistance - the body's way of sparing muscle protein. I would NOT want to face bulking with induced insulin resistance.

On a bulk, I my suggestion would be 12.5-25mcg. No androgen would be necessary since this is on a hypercaloric diet, not a hypocaloric diet. Perqs of this level should include enhanced protein synthesis, glucose uptake, CNS activation and mitochondrial density. It can also help anti-depression meds work.

Higher than this, well, if you've been taking it and it does the trick, you know your body. I stand by my recommendation to go low with the T3 for this particular application unless your personal experience dictates otherwise. Hyperthyroidism is not fun, and can lead to some rather unpleasant reactions, such as edema and anxiety, not to mention cardiac arrhythmia.

My .02

Built is correct on this. In my personal experience (or rather my fuckup) I dosed way too high and suffered from lethargy, a chronically high heart rate (which scared the hell out of me) and edema. I couldnt wear certain shoes because I become so bloated. Gains stopped, my muscle tone went flat, and holy shit I was a mess. Well, to make a long story short, I tapered off, used some vitamin/mineral support (C, E, potassium and magnesium), went low carb for the two weeks and rested with feet above my head. It took a while, but more is not necessarily better.

As Built would say, stay under the radar and use it sparingly. Trust me, what I went through scared the be-jesus out of me.

Jugg, I'm glad you're okay. You weren't the only one scared.

Originally Posted by Built

Jugg, I'm glad you're okay. You weren't the only one scared.

Yeah, but thanks to you I made it out okay. I will NOT make that same mistake ever again. Even now, I'm a bit apprehensive about using it, but I'm not going anywhere near what I did before. The fear factor keeps me in check.

Originally Posted by Built

You may wish to reconsider the dosing. 50mcg is a replacement dose - dosing thyroid is a lot like dosing test in that there is a threshold under which you won't shut down endogenous thyroid, and a feedback mechanism where reduced TSH will slow your own thyroid hormone production.

Also, while true that triiodothyronine enhances protein synthesis, chronic elevation leads to insulin resistance, in much the same way as chronic hypocaloric dieting leads to insulin resistance - the body's way of sparing muscle protein. I would NOT want to face bulking with induced insulin resistance.

On a bulk, I my suggestion would be 12.5-25mcg. No androgen would be necessary since this is on a hypercaloric diet, not a hypocaloric diet. Perqs of this level should include enhanced protein synthesis, glucose uptake, CNS activation and mitochondrial density. It can also help anti-depression meds work.

Higher than this, well, if you've been taking it and it does the trick, you know your body. I stand by my recommendation to go low with the T3 for this particular application unless your personal experience dictates otherwise. Hyperthyroidism is not fun, and can lead to some rather unpleasant reactions, such as edema and anxiety, not to mention cardiac arrhythmia.

My .02

Built, I've been dosing at 50mcg for the last three days so have I already shut my endogenous thyroid? If this is the case is there any point in lowering my dose after the shutdown has already occured?

How long does it take for hyperthyroidism to set in? Is there anything I can do to monitor my health to make using this drug a safer process?
If it were going to set in would I be experiencing any symptoms yet?

Also, 24 hours after my first dose of T3 I have been experiencing a chronic headache that will not go away nomatter what I take to ease the pain, apparently this is a common side effect from using T3, will my body eventually get used to it or do I have to drop it altogther?
I have been going to bed early with a headache and waking up feeling the same.
So far this is the only negative side effect that I've experienced.

Unfortunately I happened to have stopped taking tren and proviron and at the same time I introduced T3 and extemestane so it's a little difficult to isolate the drug that is causing the headaches however I have a gut feeling it must be the T3.

I read that Taurine can help with the headaches but it was only an opinion from a forum member on another website.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Built is correct on this. In my personal experience (or rather my fuckup) I dosed way too high and suffered from lethargy, a chronically high heart rate (which scared the hell out of me) and edema. I couldnt wear certain shoes because I become so bloated. Gains stopped, my muscle tone went flat, and holy shit I was a mess. Well, to make a long story short, I tapered off, used some vitamin/mineral support (C, E, potassium and magnesium), went low carb for the two weeks and rested with feet above my head. It took a while, but more is not necessarily better.

As Built would say, stay under the radar and use it sparingly. Trust me, what I went through scared the be-jesus out of me.

Glad to hear you are fine now Juggs.
Do you mind if I ask what dose you were taking and for how long?
How long were you running it before it became a problem?
Did you experience headaches at all?
I must admit that my hands have become a little puffy but that's about it.

Have you used T3 since or have you decided that it is not for you?