Thread: Hcg question

HCG is great to speed recovery because it increases the mass of the testes so they can output T sooner. I would run the HCG a minimum of 3 weeks.

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?

NEVER NEVER run hcg after your cycle. It will only suppress you longer... Please just run 40 40 20 20 of nolvadex and .5mg of armidex ed. This will get you back into the green as far as natty test levels are concerned.

You should have run 500iu HCG e3d while you were own to prevent shrinkage... But you didn't so I'd recommend the nolva and a-dex to tighten you up.

Originally Posted by aja44

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?

So if I ran it 3 weeks up until through the 2 weeks while it's clearing my system I should be gtg? and this would be at 500iu's 3 times/wk?

Originally Posted by aja44

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?

But I heard that you are better off running the hcg at the end rather than not at all. I think it'd be a good idea to give the testes a shock before PCT begins.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

HCG is great to speed recovery because it increases the mass of the testes so they can output T sooner. I would run the HCG a minimum of 3 weeks.

Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....

Real quick guys.. So I'm thinking after 10 weeks of just Test C 500mg/wk and Dbol 30mg/day for the first 4 wks, that a normal Clomid 50/50/25/25 and Nolva 20/20/20/20 should be ok for PCT. Then, the hcg can just be saved. This has been done before and worked just fine for me. Does that sound ok to you all?

Originally Posted by aja44

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?

Pretty much except cyp hits baseline around 10 days after injection.

Originally Posted by DaRealIronworker

Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....

And you know this how? There are MANY guys on here that have run HCG during cycle with great success and that is no reason to change IMO

Originally Posted by DaRealIronworker

Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....

HCG is only one part of PCT recovery. The OP is asking about this component so I am only commenting on this particular question not all aspects of PCT. I also commonly recommend Clomid after HCG treatment.

Additionally we do have a study that states HCG increases the volume of the testes.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/66/6/1144. Here, hCG alone was administered to 22 men with secondary hypogonadism "until maximal testicular growth was achieved." So implicit in the study design was the fact that hCG increases testicular volume. And sure enough, with administration of "hCG alone", "Their mean testicular volume increased from 5.5 mL (pretreatment) to 10.8 mL (maximum) during treatment." Also we know ITT levels increase dose dependantly with HCG administration. Therefore my statement that HCG helps the testes output T is supported by science.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Pretty much except cyp hits baseline around 10 days after injection.

so that means the hcg should be ran up until 15 days after the last test c shot and then clomid/nolva pct can begin a couple days after that?

Originally Posted by fray5

so that means the hcg should be ran up until 15 days after the last test c shot and then clomid/nolva pct can begin a couple days after that?

Well, aas clearance times are not an exact science but I would run the HCG 10 days out from my last Cyp inject myself and then immediately start Clomid.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Well, aas clearance times are not an exact science but I would run the HCG 10 days out from my last Cyp inject myself and then immediately start Clomid.

Heavyiron, thank ya very much for the advice sir!

Originally Posted by fray5

Heavyiron, thank ya very much for the advice sir!

No problem and good luck!

I had excellent results with hcg 500iu - 750iu a week for the last 4 weeks of my 1200 mg cycle....however i think it would have been better to have used it throughout my cycle based on a number of articles ive read since then. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Jasonva

NEVER NEVER run hcg after your cycle. It will only suppress you longer... Please just run 40 40 20 20 of nolvadex and .5mg of armidex ed. This will get you back into the green as far as natty test levels are concerned.

You should have run 500iu HCG e3d while you were own to prevent shrinkage... But you didn't so I'd recommend the nolva and a-dex to tighten you up.

A couple of things here.
First running an AI while androgens are low isnt exactally the best idea, once the gear clears there wont be much aromitization going on after all due to decline in testosterone.
Second lipid profiles can be compromised at the end of the cycle and an AI will only make this problem worse.
If that were not bad enough, libido, mood are all effected with estrogen and none of that will be positive with the use of an AI when it is not needed.

I also disagree with the never and here is why.
During the cycle the pituitary stops sending LH and FSH to the leydig cells and the sertoli cells, this causes atrophy of the nuts making them not responsive post cycle.
Leydig cells comprise about 10% of the total mass of the testicles so useing size is no indication of recovery.
Testicular function is the single most limiting part of recovery post cycle, getting your nuts up to speed is the most important part of this equation hands down.
The pituitary yes will shut down but clomid @ 100mg ED after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%, so this part of the shutdown should not be an issue.
With no intervention the pituitary's LH tends to move within 2 weeks.

So, yah if you have not used it during the cycle, use it after by all means and higher doses that just 500iu three times a week.
With the use of clomid and nolva desentization issues wont be a problem.

Originally Posted by DaRealIronworker

Heavy, you still preaching that HCG volumizes the testes? Sertoli cells volumize, not Leydig...and you know that HCG limits FSH release. But I know you have a study saying increased testosterone (as produced through HCG use) will stimulate the HTPA feedback loop. Don't believe it. Haven't experienced it. HMG, however, WILL do this. Let's get off this HCG myth and use what we know will work.....

HCG does in fact force the testicles to function as it is an LH analog and yes it is used to diagnose primary hypogonadism, it is not a myth and is used on young men who's nuts have not dropped to force them into the scrotum.
There are many studies on HCG and men.
HMG is Human Menopausal gonadotropins, similar to HCG but it comes in 75/75 and 150/150 LH/FSH, the LH has less effect than HCG iu wise and if you want to use HMG then use it with HCG in EOD injections.
Again Clomid gives quite a large spike in LH and a good spike in FSH.
If fertility is an issue then by all means run FSH but other than that, it will help some.
but it is hard to source.

[QUOTE=hackskii;2123991]A couple of things here.
First running an AI while androgens are low isnt exactally the best idea, once the gear clears there wont be much aromitization going on after all due to decline in testosterone.
Second lipid profiles can be compromised at the end of the cycle and an AI will only make this problem worse.
If that were not bad enough, libido, mood are all effected with estrogen and none of that will be positive with the use of an AI when it is not needed.

I also disagree with the never and here is why.
During the cycle the pituitary stops sending LH and FSH to the leydig cells and the sertoli cells, this causes atrophy of the nuts making them not responsive post cycle.
Leydig cells comprise about 10% of the total mass of the testicles so useing size is no indication of recovery.

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY BASS AT WCBB from realgains:

This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"

First of all I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.

In reality what usually happens is that many(not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons......poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.

If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly overtrain and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibilty of injury which also will hinder gainskeeping.

You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.

As an estimate of natural max.......the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10" and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a deadlift of about 500 pounds without steroids.


ANCILLARIES....HCG


Dare I say that HCG use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid) for good hpta recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use hcg during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid hpta recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.

Now you will recover hpta without hcg, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.

HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It limics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimualtes testosterone production in the testes.

It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use.

If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisen size..NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessmant of testicular size....after all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.


NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you sceptics. As little as 100mg a weekof testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.

HPTA RECOVERY

The hormones that drive the HPT axis(LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production......trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months(if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention phycological isssues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.

* SO it is important for "optimal" gainskeeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.

HOW TO USE HCG

It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of hcg is DURING a cycle.

HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.

Take it at 500iu's every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle.


Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use HCG. In this method one injects a high dose of hcg right near the end ofa cycle but before clomid. The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days latter and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's....total time three weeks.
No use taking clomid or nolav with the HCG since HCG will supress the hpta all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.

WARNING.....if you use hcg at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.



SERMS clomid and nolva

After any cycle a SERM should be used, either clomid or nolva.

SERMS help to "kickstart" a sleepy hpyothalmic GnRH response.

GnRH is pretty quick to recover but SERMS help the hypothalamus to "turn the key" on the GnRH impulse generating engine.

SERMS block the affect of estrogen at the hypothalamus and since estrogen is highly inhibitory this blocking affect allows for greater LH production. This "greater LH production" strongly stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
If you use only gear that does NOT aromatize to estrogen then you don't have to worry about the inhibitory affect of estrogen post cycle(from the steroid)...but SERMs should still be used to counter the inhibitory affect of the estrogen seen form the T production(from the hcg use).....and also from the estrogen production from the aromatization of the T production form your testes after the hcg is stopped.

*Even if you never used HCG you should still use a SERM after a cycle with non aromatizing gear to counter the inhibitory effect of normal estrogen production(from the aromatization of T from your improving T production)

You have to wait until exogenous androgen levels drop to a similar level of what a normal T production would be, in order for this LH stimulating affect from SERMS to work, since androgens are also highly inhibitory on the hypothalamus.

So you must have to have a good grasp on the half lifes of the various gear you use. You also have to be aware of the how the dose taken factors into the equation. ie: test cyp has a half life of around 6 days so with this in mind 500mg of test cyp will reduce to 250 mg in a week and about 125 in another week. That 125mg is about 100mg of pure testosterone(minus ester weight) and you can now begin SERM therapy because that level is near what a normal T output would be(slightly higher though)

NOTE: There is no penalty for starting a SERM too early but there is one for starting too late.

Search for half lifes of other gear in other threads on the boards.

On opening "SERM day", post cycle, you want to do a "loading dose" of about 200-300mg of clomid in divided doses in order to get blood levels up pronto. Then take 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg/day for 3 more weeks MINIMUM... and longer after deca use.
Alternatively you can use nolva at 80mg on day one in divided dose and then 40mg /day for a week and then 20mg/day for at least 3 more weeks.




Testicular function is the single most limiting part of recovery post cycle, getting your nuts up to speed is the most important part of this equation hands down.
The pituitary yes will shut down but clomid @ 100mg ED after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%, so this part of the shutdown should not be an issue.
With no intervention the pituitary's LH tends to move within 2 weeks.

So, yah if you have not used it during the cycle, use it after by all means and higher doses that just 500iu three times a week.
With the use of clomid and nolva desentization issues wont be a problem.



HCG does in fact force the testicles to function as it is an LH analog and yes it is used to diagnose primary hypogonadism, it is not a myth and is used on young men who's nuts have not dropped to force them into the scrotum.
There are many studies on HCG and men.
HMG is Human Menopausal gonadotropins, similar to HCG but it comes in 75/75 and 150/150 LH/FSH, the LH has less effect than HCG iu wise and if you want to use HMG then use it with HCG in EOD injections.
Again Clomid gives quite a large spike in LH and a good spike in FSH.
If fertility is an issue then by all means run FSH but other than that, it will help some.
but it is hard to source.

You ran that all together there and I lost your point.
Also the half lifes in that post you posted are not correct, by about twice actually.

HCG can and is used in PCT, in fact if you have not used it at all your recovery during PCT will be faster with the use of HCG than not.
Again, the testicles are the single biggest factor in recovery, you get those online and recovery is very easy.

Starting SERMS too early is a mistake.
If androgens are above base levels they wont do anything, nor have any effect on recovery.
They prime the pituitary to fire, they cant fire if androgens are high period, I dont care how much SERMS you take.

Basicly in a nut shell when taking SERMS it suggests to the body that estrogen is low, the only way the body can produce estrogen is with testosterone via way of the aromatase enzyme.
If you were to take estrogen yourself your testosterone production would die, much the way men that are going through sex change do.

Again, if no HCG has been used, recovery will be harder, regardless of when it is taken during or after.

Also, there is no need for a loading phase, those doses are higher than they need be and will not add any benefits other than more liver toxcicity issues.
100mg max on clomid
20mg for nolva, no need to use more it wont matter anyway.

100mg clomid ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%
Taking 300mg wont change this, not to mention occular toxcicity happens with large doses of clomid.

Leydig cell desensitization isnt an issue with nolva in there and I am talking doses of 2500 EOD with HCG.
I have a PCT developed by a well known doctor that treats recovery for steroid users and has treated over a thousand men.

Who ever is suggesting 80mg of nola a day does not know what he is talking about.

Originally Posted by aja44

If heavy says 500iu's 3x per week then that is what you should do. I was taught to run the HCG all the way through cycle and continue after your last shot while the test ester is clearing your system. So in this case you should run it the last 2 weeks of your cycle and then the next 2 weeks while the Cyp clears your system and stop just before you start your PCT.

Heavy, can you confirm this in this case if he is waiting till just the end to run it?

wut? It's normally 250iu's 2x a week, pinning the HCG the day before you pin your next steroid.

Originally Posted by Beejis60

wut? It's normally 250iu's 2x a week, pinning the HCG the day before you pin your next steroid.

250iu's twice weekly will NOT restore ITT levels. Unfortunately there is an article floating around that has misprinted the dose and every thread parrot is squawking the same misinformation.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

250iu's twice weekly will NOT restore ITT levels. Unfortunately there is an article floating around that has misprinted the dose and every thread parrot is squawking the same misinformation.

You are absolutly right big man, much of this came from Swale (Dr. John Christler) about his guys not seing any more stimulation from 250iu to 350iu stimulation.
But from my own personal experiance I have used 500iu twice a week throughout my cycle and still had some testicular atrophy.

Post cycle 500iu didnt do anything, and it takes me 20,000iu total after a 10 week cycle of test to regain full testicular function whether it was during, after or a combination of both.

A doctor I know Dr. Scally uses 2500iu EOD x 8 to restore testicular fuction for supressed guys post cycle along with nolva and clomid.

Nice call heavy.

Originally Posted by hackskii

You are absolutly right big man, much of this came from Swale (Dr. John Christler) about his guys not seing any more stimulation from 250iu to 350iu stimulation.
But from my own personal experiance I have used 500iu twice a week throughout my cycle and still had some testicular atrophy.

Post cycle 500iu didnt do anything, and it takes me 20,000iu total after a 10 week cycle of test to regain full testicular function whether it was during, after or a combination of both.

A doctor I know Dr. Scally uses 2500iu EOD x 8 to restore testicular fuction for supressed guys post cycle along with nolva and clomid.

Nice call heavy.

I think Swale has updated his HCG protocol 2 times since the original writing. The latest was something like 100iu every day but that still is not enough according to studies done on men administering testosterone. Another writer also posts 250iu twice weekly and even cites the research I am referring to but apparently did not read it closely enough.

I totally agree with you that post cycle using more HCG is merited. Really the most important thing is timing your HCG as you know.

I've actually never used HCG, but was just going off what some people really seem to trust the most on another board. The normal timing, at least from said guy, is to run it for your last 6-8 weeks weeks of a cycle at the dose I stated (which is apparently wrong) and do not during PCT... and you should pin it the day before your next injection of hormones. It seems like you're stating the contrary, no?