Your Sexual Orientation

crazy_enough · 12-02-2004, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trvlr70

Crazy,

LOL...you're hysterical. I like you!

LOL, at least were laughing now...so much bitching on this thread...
The only problem I have with homosexuality is that its gets really expensive to buy all those tampons X 2...

DOMS · 12-02-2004, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John H.

Cfs,

Spike feeling that my Sexual Orientation is "repulsive" IS from his "learning"... "Religion" has a lot to do with this misinformation and outright lying - NOT from FACTS as to its naturalness, rightness, etc.

As to Heterosexual, BiSexual and Homosexual - they ARE EACH VERY MUCH NATURAL. And just as right, good, and proper when each person cares about each other and is not just using them.

Re: Natural: see BIOLOGICAL EXUBERANCE, By Bruce Bagemihl (St. Martin's Press).

Re: Past information: see FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS, by Michael Rocke (Oxford University Press)

Re: Sexuality in all forms: see: SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE HUMAN MALE and SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE HUMAN FEMALE, by Dr. Alfred Kinsey (and others) (Sauders Medical Publishing, 1948 and 1953 respectively, each reprinted in 1998 by Indiana University Press)

Re: "...the copout that being gay is natural" - it certainly IS NOT a "copout" it IS a FACT that has ALWAYS EXISTED and ALWAY WILL as with each of the Sexualities.

Re: "Technically being retarded is natural too" - not necessarily so as some are naturally (as born) but not all (and for a number of reasons not all being directly connected with the natural - it very well could be the result of the mother and how the child was cared for prior to birth or even after or not) - and - being retarded has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the subject of a person's Sexuality AS BORN.

John H.

"it certainly IS NOT a "copout" it IS a FACT that has ALWAYS EXISTED and ALWAY WILL as with each of the Sexualities. "

Like I said, so is being retarded. An abberation (social, mental, or physical) is a part of nature, but not all abberations are for the best. (See below, genetic dead-ends)

No one taught me that I should be repulsed by the thought of two men getting hot and heavy. I'm pretty much naturally inclined to be repulsed by two men getting it on as I'm repulsed by the thought of playing with feces. That's a natural reaction!

As for homosexuality being natural, consider this: if all the males (or females) in a species decided to be natural and only have "sex" with the same gender, that species would come to an end quickly. That's supposed to be natural?

As for your references, I'm sure that they are all impartial and even...

crazy_enough · 12-02-2004, 01:21 PM

[quote=cfs3]As for homosexuality being natural, consider this: if all the males (or females) in a species decided to be natural and only have "sex" with the same gender, that species would come to an end quickly. That's supposed to be natural?[quote]

I think what was meant is that homosexuality (as heterosexuality) is naturally "inherited"....You are born this way(I was!)....it is not(for the most part, I do beleive there are exceptions) induced, created or forced upon anyone.

We gotta focus less on the fact that homosexual males fuck each other up the a$$(not all of em do) and mroe on the fact that they are human beings who breathe, live, love and yes, have sex...who doesn't?(I pitty the poor bastards who dont!lol) I dont like the tought of two dogs going at it, but is that all I think about when I see two dogs!!

food for thought!

Pepper · 12-02-2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John H.

Hi Pepper,

The Bible you refer to DOES NOT say ONE WORD about "Homosexuality" UNLESS you are referring to a "translation" that is current (being published today) because the Bible IS being RE-written to "fit" the current aggenda and is using the word "Homosexual" which was NEVER in the original. The word itself was not in use or even "coined" until about 1889 A. D....

This just pure crap, John H., it really is.

Oh and the bit about the word "homosexual" not being used until 1889 is perhaps the lamest arguement I have ever heard. It did give me a chuckle though. I am sure the word "pedophilia" was not used by the Hebrews either...you wanna suggest the Bible is OK with that? Well, in YOUR Bible, it may be approved. Your bible seems to have a few extra books added and some missing.

DOMS · 12-02-2004, 02:03 PM

I think what was meant is that homosexuality (as heterosexuality) is naturally "inherited"....You are born this way(I was!)....it is not(for the most part, I do beleive there are exceptions) induced, created or forced upon anyone.

We gotta focus less on the fact that homosexual males fuck each other up the a$$(not all of em do) and mroe on the fact that they are human beings who breathe, live, love and yes, have sex...who doesn't?(I pitty the poor bastards who dont!lol) I dont like the tought of two dogs going at it, but is that all I think about when I see two dogs!!

food for thought![/quote]
That's a real even handed response. Good for you!

I'm not saying that homosexuals shouldn't be treated just as well as anyone else, I'm saying that I don't have to like it, I can find it repulsive, and that it's not a step forward in human evolution.

Just to note, I've only heard of one study showing that homosexual preferences are biological in nature. That study was done in San Francisco by a professor from Berkeley.

Where's the droll icon when you need one?

John H. · 12-03-2004, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trvlr70

John H.,

Oh my God! I just joined IM and I'm already tired of your posts. I think it is great that you are proud of your bisexuality. However, why is it the ONLY thing you ever want to deal with? Don't you have any other personality traits that define you other than your sexuality? Your sexuality is important but not necessarily the only thing that comprises a person. This site is a common ground for people who workout or bodybuild. I could care less about a person's sexual orientation in regards to working out. You appear to be the one that makes it an issue. I look forward to a time when someone's sexual orientation will be about as significant as your hair color.

And Jesus, let's not drag the Bible into this ridiculousness.

Hi Trvlr,

Sorry to hear you are tired of my posts. I do speak about other things in other areas - when I have the time to post, it just happens that I am currently in this section (Sexual Health) at this time... My posting about Sexuality in this Section is to share information and have people UNDERSTAND AND DISCUSS intelligently and maturely and as an adult (at least HONESTLY and HOPEFULLY ACCURATELY) about Sexuality in ALL forms including Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality - as well as Asexuality - ALL forms of Sexuality completely natural. Whether you, I, or anyone else agrees or not DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS and it IS the FACTS I am trying to put forth FOR THE BETTERMENT OF ALL PEOPLE regardless of their Sexual Orientation AS A MEANS OF HONEST UNDERSTANDING about life and living. I - I - DID NOT "create" this world, you have to ask the Creator what He had in mind when He decided that He WANTED variety - variation - IN ALL THINGS which INCLUDES Sexuality. I can tell you though that in my research "RELIGION" has been trying to "sweep under the rug", "forget about it", "ignore it", "damn people", condemn people, postualize a hell of a lot of falsehood about it WITHOUT ANY FACTS and THAT IS VERY WRONG. Anyone that even had a remote interest in this subject was damned by "religion" throughout history because "ONLY (the "hierachy" in "religion") was "allowed" to discuss or research it and "they" would TELL you or I what "we needed to know", "or not" and they certainly have spent a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME DAMNING people, making or causing them misery, etc. over this subject and its practices based on "THEIR" "interpretation" (and make NO MISTAKE that IS what it is - THEIR INTERPRETATION - WITHOUT FACTS that are honest and sincere and complete and accurate research, etc.) ... Anytime science (scientists) have made any effort to try to learn and find out about anything "religion" has always been there to try in some way to refute their findings and damn them as well for the research they have done IF it "did not agree" with "religious teachings".... Scientists FORTUNATELY are beginning to DO the research that IS NEEDED to FIND answers that are accurate and complete and honest and let the "chips fall where they may" and "religion" is "NOT happy" about that research BECAUSE it lays bare the falsehood "religion" has relied on for centuries to justify their existance and their "teachings"...

I AM AFTER COMPLETE AND TOTAL AND ACCURATE HONESTY in ALL areas. I consider ALL information, ALL the time, from ALL sides of a subject WITH AN OPEN MIND AND OBJECTIVELY. I ASK QUESTIONS and I SEEK ANSWERS that have that in mind. I AM an adult and I have a RIGHT to KNOW what I am wanting to know INDEPENDENTLY of any bigotry, etc. that some may create to try to discredit... God gave me a brain which I believe He INTENDED I utilize to the very best of my ability and I certainly try to that end. Sex and Sexuality is just ONE area of my interests WHICH ARE MANY.

The ONLY WAY to TRULY LEARN is OBJECTIVELY with a completely OPEN MIND considering ALL information from ALL sources ALL the time... The sum that search which can be lifelong is where ANYONE achieves the best information they can get... To do otherwise in any other form is WRONG, and certainly NOT getting to the TRUTH. God Himself would want EACH of us to search for Him the same way - that IS how we find Him! By QUESTIONING everything and everyone INCLUDING God (or Whoever you perceive Him to be) ....

I do not know if you noticed but you are in the "Sexual Health" section of www.ironmagazine.com, a forum provided to DISCUSS all matters relating to Sex - AND there ARE other sections devoted to each topic therein and I have made replys and made posts on other areas as well and I will be as time permits. I just happen to be currently in this section for now...

I could not AGREE with you more when you say you will be glad when a person's Sexual Orientation will be about as significant as the color of your (meaning anyone's) hair - I wish that WERE the case and I can tell you IT CERTAINLY should be that way - you can thank "religion" for the mess we all are in with regard to Sexuality because it IS they that are at the bottom of ALL OUR IGNORANCE and "the control" they wish to weld over all of us in that area.... It is not me who wants to drag the Bible into this but IT IS "religion" and what they "say" the "Bible says" that IS AT THE HEART of this misinformation and outright lying... I DEAL IN FACTS ONLY. Things that can be PROVEN.... And Ideals are nice, but remember the definition of the word "Ideals" ...

REAL peace in this world can certainly be achieved THROUGH honest, accurate, complete, sincere, etc. learning and knowledge IN ALL AREAS because it dispells ignorance and fear and promotes HONEST UNDERSTANDING.

So I ask you - or anyone else - honestly interested IN ANY subject - to CONTRIBUTE to the DISCUSSION for the BENEFIT OF ALL people. To help make this a much better world.

Take Care, John H.

John H. · 12-03-2004, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy_enough

My goodness thats beautiful!!!!

Except I chage hair color very often!lol

Hi Crazy,

Think about this too - there WOULD BE people who would "damn" others EVEN over this subject - the color of their hair (and probably would find some way to find a "religious" basis for that damning...)

There is always someone somewhere wanting to damn someone else for something... (Probably because they themselves are not very happy in THEIR life and in THEIR living and are jealous of others who DO find happiness in life and in living...)

Take Care, John H.

John H. · 12-03-2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Funny, this was my original point.

However, this troll doesn't seem to know or talk about anything else.

Pony,

Please read CAREFULLY what have I say anywhere (in any section for example).. . WHO a person IS, IS AS BORN and certainly I could care less if a person is Heterosexual, BiSexual, or Homosexual - I DID NOT "create" them GOD DID and HE knows "the why" with regard to ANYTHING but He sure likes variety - variation - IN ALL THINGS!!! We ALL do have an obligation to UNDERSTAND about all things in life.... Bigotry cames about because of ignorance - and even stupidity and fear of the "unknown" - to change that LEARN HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY ABOUT ALL THINGS ALL THE TIME WITH AN OPEN MIND OBJECTIVELY...

LOOK AROUND YOU - IT IS EVERYWHERE IN EVERYTHING!!! (Variety) WHY would you - or anyone else - think differently when it is SO OBVIOUS it - variety - IS IN ALL THINGS - INCLUDING Sex. LEARN HONESTLY and you will be less fearful and become more knowledgable and happier in life and in living..

As of course you will still be WHO you REALLY ARE.... BE HONEST with YOURSELF first and foremost...

Take care,
John H.

John H. · 12-03-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfs3

"it certainly IS NOT a "copout" it IS a FACT that has ALWAYS EXISTED and ALWAY WILL as with each of the Sexualities. "

Like I said, so is being retarded. An abberation (social, mental, or physical) is a part of nature, but not all abberations are for the best. (See below, genetic dead-ends)

No one taught me that I should be repulsed by the thought of two men getting hot and heavy. I'm pretty much naturally inclined to be repulsed by two men getting it on as I'm repulsed by the thought of playing with feces. That's a natural reaction!

As for homosexuality being natural, consider this: if all the males (or females) in a species decided to be natural and only have "sex" with the same gender, that species would come to an end quickly. That's supposed to be natural?

As for your references, I'm sure that they are all impartial and even...

Cfs,

In order to understand what I have said you have to read carefully and think. Go back and re-read what I said CAREFULLY and THINK ABOUT IT.

Also, consider this HONESTLY with yourself - HOW did you "learn" your personal "thoughts" about Sexuality (in all areas) - you will find, if you really think hard about it, that you learned a lot of what OTHERS TOLD YOU - BUT DID you find out the accurate FACTS for yourself? Most people do tend to just "swallow" what someone else "tells" them without checking it out for themselves...

And AGAIN, being retarded is NOT ALWAYS something that "is natural"... How a mother bears her children can have a hell of a lot to do with the outcome of the health of that child including mentally. Sure there are some who may be retarded mentally naturally but if we really research the subject completely and accurately you will find there is a lot that IS UNNATURAL that causes people becoming or to be retarded... Also, being retarded as ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH a person's Sexuality which is what I was discussing... Just as murder, rape, incest, etc. DOES NOT have anything to do with a person's Sexuality AS BORN necessarily. ALL classes or orientations of people are guilty of these things INCLUDING those that are Heterosexual... To say that ONLY BiSexual or Homosexual people are rapists, murders, etc. IS TOTALLY INACCURATE - sure there are some who are - AND there are SOME Heterosexual people WHO ARE as well....

Re: playing with feces - hell I know what it is and I understand its function in life and I certainly am not at all interested in doing that (playing with feces) but I am still a BiSexual Man...

I think it is really interesting that most Men absolutely LOVE two females having sex with each other... I hear it all the time! They seem to really get turned on about the subject...

Any Man that masturbates himself could certainly be considered a BiSexual Man because HE IS having Sex with a Man even if that Man happens to be one and the same HE STILL IS HAVING SEX WITH A MAN. You could even stretch it further and say he is Homosexual if he ONLY has Sex with Men evens if that Man happens to be one and the same... You could also say that of Woman as well under the same circumstances. And be just as accurate.

Are you aware of variety - variation? In ALL THINGS? That IS a part of life and living....

Any references I cite are SOME of what is available for all to do their own research. Anytime individuals do research it will have their personality and their findings included in what they have to say. True Scientists work damn hard to BE very objective and complete and accurate in what they do and publish. Dr. Alfred Kinsey was that type of Scientist. He WANTED HONEST ACCURATE INFORMATION PERIOD. And there certainly are others as well.

John H.

John H. · 12-03-2004, 10:02 AM

[quote=crazy_enough][quote=cfs3]As for homosexuality being natural, consider this: if all the males (or females) in a species decided to be natural and only have "sex" with the same gender, that species would come to an end quickly. That's supposed to be natural?

Quote:

I think what was meant is that homosexuality (as heterosexuality) is naturally "inherited"....You are born this way(I was!)....it is not(for the most part, I do beleive there are exceptions) induced, created or forced upon anyone.

We gotta focus less on the fact that homosexual males fuck each other up the a$$(not all of em do) and mroe on the fact that they are human beings who breathe, live, love and yes, have sex...who doesn't?(I pitty the poor bastards who dont!lol) I dont like the tought of two dogs going at it, but is that all I think about when I see two dogs!!

food for thought!

Hi Crazy,

There are NO two leaves the same on ANY tree. That IS phenomenal!!! And so with all things in life. Most are not aware there is variety in all things and it IS all around them ALL the time..

Take Care, John H.

John H. · 12-03-2004, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepper

This just pure crap, John H., it really is.

Oh and the bit about the word "homosexual" not being used until 1889 is perhaps the lamest arguement I have ever heard. It did give me a chuckle though. I am sure the word "pedophilia" was not used by the Hebrews either...you wanna suggest the Bible is OK with that? Well, in YOUR Bible, it may be approved. Your bible seems to have a few extra books added and some missing.

Hi Pepper,

Well at least you are laughing... BUT,

I stand completely by what I said BECAUSE WHAT I SAID IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Check it out for yourself and see.

And as for Sodom, etc. - IT WAS ABOUT the LACK OF HOSPITALITY towards others that was being talked about ...

Consider this also (I am not sure if I said this to you before) - the Bible WAS WRITTEN by OVER 40 different Men each with their own thoughts over a long period of time at least 250 YEARS AFTER the death of Christ. I'd love to get all of those that wrote into one room and have a discussion with all of them all at the same time and even hear what each of them had to say to each other about whatever - I can GUARANTEE YOU they would NOT AGREE on much!!! Try it on the street you live on - get your neighbors together and bring up a subject and see how each WILL disagree on whatever... Now throw the "Bible" into the equation!!!!

Take Care, John H.

Newt · 12-12-2004, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIKE1257

Don't put words in my mouth, I don't find you or anyone gay repulsive.. it is the act itself (2 men being intimate) I can't relate to..

It sounds like words aren't all he wants to put in your mouth!

DOMS · 12-13-2004, 08:49 AM

Souped_up · 01-14-2005, 01:02 PM

I am 100 percent straight - HONESTLY. I think sexuality CAN BE CHANGED. Its a result of environment. WE don't wake up one day and decide our sexuality. It is a result of many things in our life usually starting in childhood.

Take Care, Souped_up

crazy_enough · 01-14-2005, 01:05 PM

Geez souped, u gonna get tendenitis(is that how its spelled?) from posting today!!!

Im glad u added that little comment under your name...I was gonna say that myself with all the CAPS and all...lol

Souped_up · 01-14-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy_enough

Geez souped, u gonna get tendenitis(is that how its spelled?) from posting today!!!

Im glad u added that little comment under your name...I was gonna say that myself with all the CAPS and all...lol

Hi Crazy_enough,

Me and John H. go way back. I knew him from when he posted on bb.com back in early 2003- ASK HIM. He is the REAL DEAL. I enjoy posting like this on this forum because I can't on his old bb.com forum because id probably get banned for typing like this, although Im going to start there soon since I got a 3day ban there anyways

. They thought he was a troll at bb.com. It was the moderator raprazant that banned him. He is a idiot and loser and he should have been banned not John H. Oh and im not as nice as John H. either.

Take Care, Souped_up

gococksDJS · 01-14-2005, 04:12 PM

Come on guys, that is an exit only hole.

njc · 01-15-2005, 09:30 AM

seems to be an unproportionate amount of gayness here. Judging by the poll. i mean compared to regular society.

crazy_enough · 01-18-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njc

seems to be an unproportionate amount of gayness here. Judging by the poll. i mean compared to regular society.

not really as 10% of the population is supposedly homosexual(1 in 10)...were barely at 9%!

John H. · 01-18-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy_enough

not really as 10% of the population is supposedly homosexual(1 in 10)...were barely at 9%!

Hi Crazy,

Give it time because there are different people everywhere and with everything. It's the variation (variety) that exists in all things in life and living. They just haven't "spoken up" yet...

Take Care, John H.

Vieope · 01-18-2005, 01:43 PM

I heard you are bisexual John H. Do you think more about men or women? Are you more kind of gay or more kind of heterosexual?

fantasma62 · 01-18-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John H.

Hi Crazy,

Give it time because there are different people everywhere and with everything. It's the variation (variety) that exists in all things in life and living. They just haven't "spoken up" yet...

Take Care, John H.

If I had a dollar for every time you posted "variation (variety)", as if the only person who knows what that means is you, I would be undercutting Bill Gates and buying Microsoft....

gococksDJS · 01-18-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John H.

Hi Crazy,

Give it time because there are different people everywhere and with everything. It's the variation (variety) that exists in all things in life and living. They just haven't "spoken up" yet...

Take Care, John H.

Man you sound like the leader of some unspoken revolution where at your signal, millions will come out of the closet.

View Poll Results: Your Sexual Orientation, honestly speaking what is it?
Heterosexual	131	85.06%
BiSexual	10	6.49%
Homosexual	11	7.14%
Am not really sure / Or I am trying to find out honestly	2	1.30%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

12-02-2004, 01:21 PM	#63
crazy_enough IM lesbo extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 3654322436751302 weeks out Posts: 2,423 Photos: 18	[quote=cfs3]As for homosexuality being natural, consider this: if all the males (or females) in a species decided to be natural and only have "sex" with the same gender, that species would come to an end quickly. That's supposed to be natural?[quote] I think what was meant is that homosexuality (as heterosexuality) is naturally "inherited"....You are born this way(I was!)....it is not(for the most part, I do beleive there are exceptions) induced, created or forced upon anyone. We gotta focus less on the fact that homosexual males fuck each other up the a$$(not all of em do) and mroe on the fact that they are human beings who breathe, live, love and yes, have sex...who doesn't?(I pitty the poor bastards who dont!lol) I dont like the tought of two dogs going at it, but is that all I think about when I see two dogs!! food for thought!
	Life is what you make of it, not what it makes you...TAKE CHARGE! http://www.boners.com/content/791433.1.jpg

12-02-2004, 02:03 PM	#65
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,512 Photos: 5	I think what was meant is that homosexuality (as heterosexuality) is naturally "inherited"....You are born this way(I was!)....it is not(for the most part, I do beleive there are exceptions) induced, created or forced upon anyone. We gotta focus less on the fact that homosexual males fuck each other up the a$$(not all of em do) and mroe on the fact that they are human beings who breathe, live, love and yes, have sex...who doesn't?(I pitty the poor bastards who dont!lol) I dont like the tought of two dogs going at it, but is that all I think about when I see two dogs!! food for thought![/quote] That's a real even handed response. Good for you! I'm not saying that homosexuals shouldn't be treated just as well as anyone else, I'm saying that I don't have to like it, I can find it repulsive, and that it's not a step forward in human evolution. Just to note, I've only heard of one study showing that homosexual preferences are biological in nature. That study was done in San Francisco by a professor from Berkeley. Where's the droll icon when you need one? Last edited by DOMS : 12-02-2004 at 06:35 PM.

01-14-2005, 01:05 PM	#75
crazy_enough IM lesbo extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 3654322436751302 weeks out Posts: 2,423 Photos: 18	Geez souped, u gonna get tendenitis(is that how its spelled?) from posting today!!! Im glad u added that little comment under your name...I was gonna say that myself with all the CAPS and all...lol
	Life is what you make of it, not what it makes you...TAKE CHARGE! http://www.boners.com/content/791433.1.jpg

01-14-2005, 04:12 PM	#77
gococksDJS RIP Foreman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,002	Come on guys, that is an exit only hole.
gococksDJS RIP Foreman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,002

12-13-2004, 08:49 AM	#73
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,512 Photos: 5

01-14-2005, 01:02 PM	#74
Souped_up Bodybuilder & Moneymaker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 197	I am 100 percent straight - HONESTLY. I think sexuality CAN BE CHANGED. Its a result of environment. WE don't wake up one day and decide our sexuality. It is a result of many things in our life usually starting in childhood. Take Care, Souped_up

01-15-2005, 09:30 AM	#78
njc Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: located Posts: 748	seems to be an unproportionate amount of gayness here. Judging by the poll. i mean compared to regular society.
	"Today the practice of defending one of the cardinal virtues has all the extreme exhiliration of a vice"

01-18-2005, 01:43 PM	#81
Vieope Monochromatic Bunny Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: drinking coffee.. Posts: 14,829 Photos: 10	I heard you are bisexual John H. Do you think more about men or women? Are you more kind of gay or more kind of heterosexual?
	FURtherness

01-18-2005, 10:13 PM	#84
Witmaster Esprit de Corps Elite Member Join Date: May 2004 Location