Thread: Sexuality - for those interested

Given that psychology is one of the least understood, least developed and least respected fields of study and one of the big names (Freud) in this field of study was known to falsify his research and lie I think that the conclusions drawn in the above statement are dubious at best. I certainly place little faith in the assumption of infallibility of this branch of the medical community given the great numbers of malpractice cases and non-objective political influence it suffers. Here we have a case where of a body of psychological study that was developed by known liars (trying to study and understand what makes them liars - sounds insane to me) being used to draw conclusions that these are not "mental disorders or emotional problems". Clearly this can only be an opinion and a judgment call since there is no real reliable standard for what constitutes "normal" mental health. The researchers here would have us believe that it is irrational to think that we do not need their opinions on this matter to draw our own conclusions based on our own observations of nature. Which is itself crazy and egocentric. I think that most common average people think that a man would certainly have to be crazy to try and pro-create and express love by shooting body fluids into the anus of another man and turn his back on a beautiful woman. I have my own opinions about why these behaviors exists but won't get into it here except to say I think deep down at the core it relates to selfishness, insecurity and lack of self worth. If it turns out that there is a "queer" gene then perhaps nature has a check and balance and uses "behavioral sterility" as a means to prevent the gene pool from propagating the error.

The above medical statement certainly does not change my opinion on the matter.

OD

Originally Posted by John H.

I quote this from:

American Medical Association FAMILY MEDICAL GUIDE (4th edition) published in New York, by John Wiley & Sons, c2004, page 468:

BiSexuality and Homosexuality: "The factors that influence a person's sexual orientation are not completely understood, by they appear to encompass a complex combination of biological, psychological, and social influences. What is clear is that sexual orientation is not a lifestyle choice that can easily be changed. Most people discover at a very early age - in childhood or adolescence - before they have had any sexual experiences, that they are attracted to people of a certain gender.
To avoid the social stigma sometimes attached to being Homosexual, some gay people try hard to change their sexual orientation, usually without success. No scientific evidence shows that trying to alter one's sexual orientation is an appropriate goal of psychological or psychiatric treatment. Homosexuality and BiSexuality are not mental disorders or emotional problems. Doctors view Homosexuality and BiSexuality as normal variations of human sexual expression. Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are caused by a sense of alienation from living in an unacceptable environment."

The person who wrote this most certainly spoke with a lisp and has weak wrists.

Originally Posted by OceanDude

Given that psychology is one of the least understood, least developed and least respected fields of study and one of the big names (Freud) in this field of study was known to falsify his research and lie I think that the conclusions drawn in the above statement are dubious at best. I certainly place little faith in the assumption of infallibility of this branch of the medical community given the great numbers of malpractice cases and non-objective political influence it suffers. Here we have a case where of a body of physiological study that was developed by known liars (trying to study and understand what makes them liars - sounds insane to me) being used to draw conclusions that these are not "mental disorders or emotional problems". Clearly this can only be an opinion and a judgment call since there is no real reliable standard for what constitutes "normal" mental health. The researchers here would have us believe that it is irrational to think that we do not need their opinions on this matter to draw our own conclusions based on our own observations of nature. Which is itself crazy and egocentric. I think that most common average people think that a man would certainly have to be crazy to try and pro-create and express love by shooting body fluids into the anus of another man and turn his back on a beautiful woman. I have my own opinions about why these behaviors exists but won't get into it here except to say I think deep down at the core it relates to selfishness, insecurity and lack of self worth. If it turns out that there is a "queer" gene then perhaps nature has a check and balance and uses "behavioral sterility" as a means to prevent the gene pool from propagating the error.

The above medical statement certainly does not change my opinion on the matter.

OD

He's a gay.

Originally Posted by MTN WARRIOR

He's a gay.

You are pointing to John H. an not me correct?
OD

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

The person who wrote this most certainly spoke with a lisp and has weak wrists.

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

The person who wrote this most certainly spoke with a lisp and has weak wrists.

I'm sthure he does, sthilly.

Originally Posted by John H.

I quote this from:

Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are caused by a sense of alienation from living in an unacceptable environment."

My God that could be written to mean anything:
Most emotional problems that occur in teenagers are......................
Most emotional problems that occur in women are........................
Most emotional problems that occur in men are ..........................
Most emotional problems that occur in hamsters are.......................

I always feel like an alien in an unacceptable enviroment

Originally Posted by Lurker

My God that could be written to mean anything:
Most emotional problems that occur in teenagers are......................
Most emotional problems that occur in women are........................
Most emotional problems that occur in men are ..........................
Most emotional problems that occur in hamsters are.......................

I always feel like an alien in an unacceptable enviroment

I agree but why stop there?
Most emotional problems of rapist, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers are attributed to an unacceptable environment.

OD

Originally Posted by OceanDude

Given that psychology is one of the least understood, least developed and least respected fields of study and one of the big names (Freud) in this field of study was known to falsify his research and lie I think that the conclusions drawn in the above statement are dubious at best. I certainly place little faith in the assumption of infallibility of this branch of the medical community given the great numbers of malpractice cases and non-objective political influence it suffers. Here we have a case where of a body of psychological study that was developed by known liars (trying to study and understand what makes them liars - sounds insane to me) being used to draw conclusions that these are not "mental disorders or emotional problems". Clearly this can only be an opinion and a judgment call since there is no real reliable standard for what constitutes "normal" mental health. The researchers here would have us believe that it is irrational to think that we do not need their opinions on this matter to draw our own conclusions based on our own observations of nature. Which is itself crazy and egocentric. I think that most common average people think that a man would certainly have to be crazy to try and pro-create and express love by shooting body fluids into the anus of another man and turn his back on a beautiful woman. I have my own opinions about why these behaviors exists but won't get into it here except to say I think deep down at the core it relates to selfishness, insecurity and lack of self worth. If it turns out that there is a "queer" gene then perhaps nature has a check and balance and uses "behavioral sterility" as a means to prevent the gene pool from propagating the error.

The above medical statement certainly does not change my opinion on the matter.

OD

Hi Ocean,

To UNDERSTAND anything you (meaning anyone here throughout this) must OEN MIND and BE OBJECIVE about all things. Without that you understand - and learn - nothing. Truthfully or accurately or completely.

You mention the "psychological" - if you will notice this book was authored by the MEDICAL community - the American Medical Association. There findings are based on their research - SO FAR. It is ongoing.

By YOUR rational, anything that "sounds insane to me" - "must be". THAT is NOT being accurate, complete, honest, objective, etc. YOU (meaning anyone likeminded) are just postulating what "you believe" to be "true" WITHOUT accurate FACTS.

Additionally you mention "... no real reliable standard for what constitutes 'normal' mental health..." - anyone MUST REMEMBER that there is VARIETY - VARIATION in ALL THINGS in life and living INCLUDING Sexuality. What YOU (meaning anyone here) "consider" to be "normal" or not may not BE FACT. WHO would you "select" to BE the "judge" of what "is normal" or "not normal"?

Certainly we have been told - especially by the "religious community" that, for example BiSexuality and Homosexuality, are "not natural" - NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH - OR ACCURATE. To the contrary, BiSexuality and Homosexuality ARE natural most definitely. They are - just as is Heterosexuality - VARIATIONS of Sexuality.

Let's go to your statement of "normal mental health" - I COULD, as could anyone else, consider "normal mental health" to be the USING AND ABUSING of another for Sexual gratification which many certainly are guilty of with respect to the Heterosexual community - ALL the time (and NOT "knocking" anyone necessarily here) Heterosexual people brag and boast about their conquests - people they USE for their Sexual gratification. This could be considered "normal" since many here DO this - so then I have to ask you if you were setting the "standard" or "norm" would this USING and / or ABUSING of another be a proper standard for what is "normal"? And I am not forgetting that SOME BiSexual and Homosexual people are also guilty of this...

I can say that observing Nature can set the "standard" of what is natural. And that would include Human Beings since Human Beings ARE a part of the Natural World - whether you, I, or anyone else agree, disagree, accept, etc. - THAT IS A FACT.

The FACT that there IS VARIETY - VARIATION - IN ALL THINGS IS to deny life itself! And that variety IS IN ALL THINGS - INCLUDING SEXUALITY. So why would you or anyone else DENY the fact of Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality? Each has ANYWAYS EXISTED in ALL areas of the world - throughout history. Did YOU "choose" to BE Heterosexual? WHEN did you "MAKE that choice" - the SAME applies to everyone else. It IS AS BORN surely as the color of your skin. And not to get this subject confused - as some like to do - with murder, Sexuality and its variation has nothing to do with "murder". We are speaking of Sexuality, NOT murder.

It has always been my belief that people MUST be of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely. Using and / or abusing someone - regardless of Sexuality - is I believe wrong. That you (meaning anyone here again) care about and respect those you are with is paramount REGARDLESS of the Gender of those involved. If a "standard" is to be applied to anything, this is the "standard" which I would apply to personal Sexual relationships with others - that they EACH CARE HONESTLY about each other. Remember Sexuality IS a private matter between two people - who are of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely. In all honestly it is no one else's business unless those involved give their consent to "making it" someone else's business. Sexuality is I believe naturally a PRIVATE matter. Sexuality and Sex are not the "business of" the government or even religion. Period. And it has been made the "BUSINESS OF" government and religion because it has been realized by them to be "profitable" to get into that "business" by them.

Take Care, John H.

Originally Posted by John H.

I quote this from:

American Medical Association FAMILY MEDICAL GUIDE (4th edition) published in New York, by John Wiley & Sons, c2004, page 468:

BiSexuality and Homosexuality: "The factors that influence a person's sexual orientation are not completely understood, by they appear to encompass a complex combination of biological, psychological, and social influences. What is clear is that sexual orientation is not a lifestyle choice that can easily be changed. Most people discover at a very early age - in childhood or adolescence - before they have had any sexual experiences, that they are attracted to people of a certain gender.
To avoid the social stigma sometimes attached to being Homosexual, some gay people try hard to change their sexual orientation, usually without success. No scientific evidence shows that trying to alter one's sexual orientation is an appropriate goal of psychological or psychiatric treatment. Homosexuality and BiSexuality are not mental disorders or emotional problems. Doctors view Homosexuality and BiSexuality as normal variations of human sexual expression. Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are caused by a sense of alienation from living in an unacceptable environment."

The last sentence should read: "Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are cause by a sense of alienatiion from living in an UNACCEPTING environment". Sorry for the typo.

Take Care, John H.

Originally Posted by OceanDude

I agree but why stop there?
Most emotional problems of rapist, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers are attributed to an unacceptable environment.

OD

Are you drawing a comparison between homosexuals and rapists, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers? If you are, it's offensive, because there is no comparison by even the wildest stretch of imagination. I could only chalk up belief in such a comparison to the most profound and abject ignorance.

The point of the statement "Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are cause by a sense of alienatiion from living in an unaccepting environment" is that we homosexuals have had it beaten (sometimes literally) into our heads that there is something wrong with us, when there is not. So to avoid familial and societal rejection, many of us have lived closeted lives, and lived lies. Some of us have even married women and raised children, giving the illusion that we are straight. All to appease society and hide our true natures. How sad.

God! Not another one of these gay debates. Every time John H. starts a thread.....

Originally Posted by John H.

BiSexuality and Homosexuality: "The factors that influence a person's sexual orientation are not completely understood, by they appear to encompass a complex combination of biological, psychological, and social influences. "

I think another factor is the use of pork rinds during foreplay. Why do gay guys like to shove pork rinds in each other's ears? I mean, of all the delicious salty snacks out there, why pork rinds?

Originally Posted by I Are Baboon

I think another factor is the use of pork rinds during foreplay. Why do gay guys like to shove pork rinds in each other's ears? I mean, of all the delicious salty snacks out there, why pork rinds?

It's the crunchiness.

I think being gay comes more from social and psycological influences than genetics. Someone could stop being gay if submitted to psychotherapy?

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Are you drawing a comparison between homosexuals and rapists, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers? If you are, it's offensive, because there is no comparison by even the wildest stretch of imagination. I could only chalk up belief in such a comparison to the most profound and abject ignorance.

The point of the statement "Most emotional problems that occur in Homosexuals are cause by a sense of alienatiion from living in an unaccepting environment" is that we homosexuals have had it beaten (sometimes literally) into our heads that there is something wrong with us, when there is not. So to avoid familial and societal rejection, many of us have lived closeted lives, and lived lies. Some of us have even married women and raised children, giving the illusion that we are straight. All to appease society and hide our true natures. How sad.

I knew someone would project this example in a way designed to invoke a value and outrage response (e.g. the operative term is “offensive”). So now I must ask by what standard or value system do you claim legitimacy at expressing outrage? Is it poor or conditional judgment at my intent or perhaps it extends from some belief that you have a unique and self evident right to tell anyone else what we should find sensible and acceptable to ourselves?

For the time being assume only the possibility that I was attempting to illustrate the illogic and prejudiced consideration in the medical community’s assumptive assertion (where there no dissenting views? Who is the pope of the medical community?). The premise that article had was based solely on the context of the homosexuals view of what was “unacceptable’ to him and that I find to be unholistic since if he is at all human how he feels is clearly a reflection on how society at large views what is acceptable to it as well. In the larger view of what is “acceptable”, fundamentally this is an issue of who the audience or group is. I find it unacceptable and “offensive” and hypocritical that a homosexual would object to the notion that only they are entitled to the implicit considerations of social accommodation.

That said, it is still the opinion of a great many of society that you are all not normal. Statistically speaking, anything outside of 2 sigmas of standard deviation (about 3%) is not normal. That is not to say that another non-normal human is anything less than human. I have seen handicapped people get by just well in life with the proper training and therapy. But then again I do not consider the 3% of geniuses or other people that often think they are more special than others to be normal either.

That all said, on a personal basis I am not without compassion for those that suffer alienation of any form. Given the vast vacuum of the universe life appears to be statistically rare in proportion to vastness and it would seem logical to assert that it is a thing to be valued in all its forms. But there are forms of life that are harmful to other forms of life (viruses and worms are quite content to breed with themselves in a dung pile as much as they are in a human host). Clearly there is a hierarchy to life and a preference for higher order in who or what decides which can live with which. Nature has consistently dictated this for millennium but Nature is rarely compassionate and that which is not in harmony with it usually perishes or is held in check. It may be that society might someday accept what you would have it call “normal” but ultimately it is Nature that will determine if Society is permitted to exist.

It might be more noble to subordinate one’s own desires and hold in check the behavior that most of society finds objectionable. I think this would earn a lot more respect than trying to ram rod what many believe to be a lifestyle choice down the throats of those that find the behavior (not the person) abhorrent and unnatural. No matter what kind of political and social laws are passed we all have the fundamental constitutional right of free association. Government will never effectively legislate a law that succeeds in making anyone respect and accept behaviors that they find personally repugnant.


OD

Originally Posted by OceanDude

So now I must ask by what standard or value system do you claim legitimacy at expressing outrage?

And the answer to that is that I am a normal, sane, law-abiding gay man who finds it offensive to be compared to rapists, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers.

Originally Posted by OceanDude

It might be more noble to subordinate one’s own desires and hold in check the behavior that most of society finds objectionable. I think this would earn a lot more respect than trying to ram rod what many believe to be a lifestyle choice down the throats of those that find the behavior (not the person) abhorrent and unnatural. No matter what kind of political and social laws are passed we all have the fundamental constitutional right of free association. Government will never effectively legislate a law that succeeds in making anyone respect and accept behaviors that they find personally repugnant.


OD

That's bullcrap and ignorant psychobabble. So we should go back in the closet? There is no behavior that society should find objectionable, nor is any behavior being ramrodded down anyone's throats. That's homophobic propaganda. People need to mind their own business and not worry about what we do.

Does it really matter? I think to each their own. Life is too short to live it according to what other people think is acceptable or normal. If you are blessed enough to find someone that makes you happy then you should be with them. Man or woman.

Originally Posted by Rocky_Road

Does it really matter? I think to each their own. Life is too short to live it according to what other people think is acceptable or normal. If you are blessed enough to find someone that makes you happy then you should be with them. Man or woman.

Or in Max's case, llamas.

Originally Posted by Rocky_Road

Does it really matter? I think to each their own. Life is too short to live it according to what other people think is acceptable or normal. If you are blessed enough to find someone that makes you happy then you should be with them. Man or woman.

That's the point. What is it to anyone else who a person lives and sleeps with? Why are some people so bothered by it?

Originally Posted by Minotaur

That's the point. What is it to anyone else who a person lives and sleeps with? Why are some people so bothered by it?

Because some people are truly ignorant. Everyone is supposed to have a soul mate, right? Well, who says that your soul mate has to of the opposite sex? I don't believe that homosexuality is "caused" by anything or is "wrong". How can loving someone else ever be wrong??

Originally Posted by Minotaur

That's bullcrap and ignorant psychobabble. So we should go back in the closet? There is no behavior that society should find objectionable, nor is any behavior being ramrodded down anyone's throats. That's homophobic propaganda. People need to mind their own business and not worry about what we do.

Call it what you want but you are very wrong if I am understanding your statement as being applied to the general case of "behavior" and that "there is no behavior that society should find objectionable". What makes your standard more legitimate than anyone else's? To use your own standard for judgment and eloquent words "that's just bull crap and ignorant psychobabble" since it flies in the face of reality with a majority of society finding it proper and necessary to legislate hundreds of laws that effect "acceptable" daily behavior of all kinds. That's why we have jails and fines for things that society deems inappropriate. You are just trying to change the current societal rules about one particular behavior and that is from my perspective just another case of special interest lobbying and more hetero-phobia propaganda and from what you just uttered patently hypocritical. All I did was offer a way to get society to respect you. I did not expect a litany of personal attacks for offering the best solution I could come up with that might make society more respectful of your condition. Isn't hating the majority or heteros a hate crime too?

OD

Originally Posted by Rocky_Road

Because some people are truly ignorant. Everyone is supposed to have a soul mate, right? Well, who says that your soul mate has to of the opposite sex? I don't believe that homosexuality is "caused" by anything or is "wrong". How can loving someone else ever be wrong??

Seeking a soul mate? Love a puppy. Scratch it behind the ears and it will love you back for life!
OD

Originally Posted by Minotaur

And the answer to that is that I am a normal, sane, law-abiding gay man who finds it offensive to be compared to rapists, child molesters, murderers and suicide bombers.

You elected to make the direct association not I. I was simply illustrating how ludicrous the AMA's statement was since clearly every group both criminal, deviant or normal could use the same argument that "most emotional problems that occur for [them] are caused by a sense of alienation from living in an unacceptable environment." The implication is that the environment should change to accommodate them - which is just weak and bogus logic.The fact of the matter remains homosexuals have serious emotional problems as the AMA intimates. If you do not like the fact that this is the implication, I would suggest you take up your displeasure with the AMA. Failing that perhaps you should reexamine how rational it is for homosexuals to toss AMA propaganda out at IM as if it were endorsing the behavior when they are basically calling you all fruitcakes who are in need of medical attention. It sounds at least oxymoronic to me.

OD

Originally Posted by OceanDude

Call it what you want but you are very wrong if I am understanding your statement as being applied to the general case of "behavior" and that "there is no behavior that society should find objectionable". What makes your standard more legitimate than anyone else's? To use your own standard for judgment and eloquent words "that's just bull crap and ignorant psychobabble" since it flies in the face of reality with a majority of society finding it proper and necessary to legislate hundreds of laws that effect "acceptable" daily behavior of all kinds. That's why we have jails and fines for things that society deems inappropriate. You are just trying to change the current societal rules about one particular behavior and that is from my perspective just another case of special interest lobbying and more hetero-phobia propaganda and from what you just uttered patently hypocritical. All I did was offer a way to get society to respect you. I did not expect a litany of personal attacks for offering the best solution I could come up with that might make society more respectful of your condition. Isn't hating the majority or heteros a hate crime too?

OD

I'm talking about homosexuality and only that, and you know it. This discussion is not about any other topic, legal or otherwise, and you know that also.

Nice try in trying to bait. I'm not biting.

Live your life as you see fit and let others live theirs.

Originally Posted by OceanDude

Seeking a soul mate? Love a puppy. Scratch it behind the ears and it will love you back for life!
OD

To some people, finding their soul mate is a once in a lifetime, life changing thing. Ask Adrien. For you to say something like 'love a puppy' shows that you have yet to find yours. I'm sad for you.