Pats may be best ever

min0 lee · 01-30-2005, 11:45 AM

But dynasty legends say not so fast
Tom Brady will try to point Patriots to third Super Bowl title in four years - and elite company of greatest NFL dynasties.

The matchups are intriguing. Bill Belichick trying to outsmart Vince Lombardi. Tom Brady attempting to dissect the Steel Curtain defense. The resourceful Patriots defense first trying to shut down Joe Montana, Jerry Rice and Roger Craig and then going after Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith.

If the Patriots beat the Eagles next Sunday, they become only the second team to win three Super Bowls in four years. That qualifies as a dynasty. They would join the Packers of the '60s, Steelers of the '70s, 49ers of the '80s and the '90s Cowboys as teams of their decades.

That does not, however, answer an important question: Could the Patriots, by far the best team in an era watered down by free agency and the salary cap, beat or even compete against the greatest teams of all time? Asked how his team would do, Patriots linebacker Tedy Bruschi suggested that question can only be answered by popping a disc into a video game and letting the teams play in the virtual world.

"As much as I admire the Patriots, and Bill Belichick . . . I really don't think you can compare post-salary cap and pre-salary cap," former Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson said. "I just don't think the teams are as good with all the player movement, free agency and the salary cap. I think Bill and I pretty well agree on it. The Steelers, 49ers and Cowboys - that was the best football that has ever been played."

It's not unexpected that Johnson, or others from the Packers, Steelers and 49ers, are protective of what their respective teams accomplished. Still, those are the best teams the league has ever produced.

New England has put together back-to-back 14-2 seasons and this group is 8-0 in the playoffs over the last four seasons. But rank them against those Packers, Steelers, 49ers and Cowboys teams and they finish fifth.

Four of the Pats' eight playoff victories have come by three points, including both Super Bowls. They have dominated a weak era.

So here's how we rank them:

1. '70s Steelers.
2. '60s Packers
3. '90s Cowboys
4. '80s 49ers
5. '00s Patriots

Giants GM Ernie Accorsi, a student of the history of the game, says "personnel-wise" the Patriots can't compare with the great teams. "Accomplishment-wise, I would put them with the Steelers and Packers and all of them. Coaching-wise, they stack up with anybody. How can you argue?" he said. "They have good, sound players. Do you think there's any chance they are going to have seven or nine Hall of Famers? Personnel-wise, I don't think you can make a case. But it's a team."

Aikman said if the Pats win their third in four years, tying what his Dallas teams did in the '90s, he would consider it a more significant achievement. "I think it's harder to win consistently today in the league than when I was playing," he said. "The talent gap between teams is not that significant."

Physically, the game has changed so much over the years. Pittsburgh's Joe Greene, one of the greatest defensive tackles of all time, played at 6-4, 260. Vikings quarterback Daunte Culpepper is listed at 264 pounds. New England All-Pro DE-DT Richard Seymour plays at 6-6, 310. Steelers All-Pro linebacker Jack Ham was listed at 225 pounds, only five pounds more than New England safety Rodney Harrison plays at today.

But all five teams were more talented than the Patriots.

"There is no way they would stack up against the Steelers, it's that simple," said former 49ers coach Bill Walsh. "You take any team, even our great ones - the Steelers had the best grouping of players in the history of the game. No question about it."

And what about the Niners?

"It would have been interesting for our 1988-89 49ers to play any defense," Walsh said. "We had truly a great offensive unit. Our defense was as strong as anybody."

Pittsburgh won four Super Bowls in the 1970s, twice winning back-to-back. The Niners won four times in the '80s and the Cowboys of the '90s became the first to win three in a four-year period. If free agency didn't hit and those Cowboys teams stayed intact, and if Johnson didn't leave after the second title in a bitter breakup with owner Jerry Jones, Dallas might have won five in a row. All their best players were so young.

Terry Bradshaw, Jack Lambert, Greene, Ham, Lynn Swann and John Stallworth headline a group of nine Hall of Fame Steelers from those '70s teams. Coach Chuck Noll also was inducted. The Packers, led by Bart Starr, Paul Hornung and Ray Nitschke, have 10 players in the Hall of Fame from their championship teams of the '60s, when they won five titles in a seven-year span. Lombardi is also in.

Montana, Walsh and Ronnie Lott are 49er Hall of Famers from the '80s, and Jerry Rice will join them five years after he is done playing. Steve Young, a 49ers backup in the late '80s who later was the starting quarterback for their fifth title team in 1994, is expected to be elected to the Hall on Saturday. Aikman and Smith are locks when they are eligible, and Irvin is among the final 15 Saturday in his first year of eligibility.

The Patriots? Only Belichick and Brady, if they win their third title together, will have spots reserved for them in Canton. They might have secured spots already with what they've accomplished. "The Patriots have a really good team," Montana said.

"They have a great team. I'm sure they fit in the category with all those teams. They are as good as anybody out there. It's so hard to tell. Even comparing us to the Steelers - the game has changed."

The Pats win because they play smart, have superior coaching, don't make mistakes and when one or two game-deciding plays need to be made, they make them. They don't win because they overwhelm teams with their talent. For the most part, they are a blue-collar team comprised of role players. Brady, Bruschi and kicker Adam Vinatieri were the only Patriots selected for the Pro Bowl this season.

But Johnson says New England gets the edge in one important area. "The Patriots might be better coached than any of those teams," he said. "The Patriots might be the best coached team ever. I think they've done a masterful job of coaching."

"The New England Patriots rival any coaching staff and their execution is as good as any team," Walsh said. "But I honestly don't believe they have some of the truly great players that the dynasty teams had."

Players and coaches from those Packers, Steelers, 49ers and Cowboys teams admire what the Patriots have done. It's impressive because it's so hard to keep teams together now.

"I never dreamed anybody would be in position to do what they've done," Bradshaw said. "If they win this one, giving them three out of four, it puts them right up there with the best teams that ever played."

Ham says comparing teams from different eras is difficult. "You're talking 25 years ago," he said. "If you take our team now and bring it forward, frozen in time, we can't compete. Our biggest guy was Joe Greene."

But he said as many as 13 starters were the same on all four of their Super Bowl teams. Accorsi noted that the Patriots turned over their roster by about 30% after last season. The quality of play was better 25 years ago due to the continuity.

The Lombardi Packers tend to get lost in the equation because their run was 40 years ago. But they dominated a decade.

"Our team was one of the best teams ever," Hornung said. "I don't think there are 12 Hall of Famers on the Patriots. That doesn't say they are not as good as the Steelers, 49ers and Packers. If you look at Hall of Famers, I don't think you find three players. You might look upon that as a negative. Other people look at it as a positive saying that is what a great team is."

Hornung says a friend of his who used to set the betting line in Las Vegas told him the '60s Packers would have been an eight-point favorite against the great Dolphins teams of the early 70s. "He said, 'There's not a team I think that you all would be underdogs to - maybe the 49ers team or one of the Pittsburgh teams, but you would almost have to call it a tossup,'" Hornung said.

The Patriots have certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of the no-star concept, but, Aikman adds, "They have a much more talented team than they get credit for. They are regarded as blue-collar, hard-working guys. They are pretty talented. It's not just Bill Belichick drawing lines on a board."

So how do the Patriots think they would do against the all-time great teams?

"To worry how we would play against those other teams is just something that we don't really want to concern ourselves with," Bruschi said. "We'll save that for the video game."

Super squads

Each of the last five decades has had its signature NFL team. The Patriots are the latest. Here's how New England compares to the great dynasties of the past:

1960s: Packers
Record: 96-37-5
Super Bowl appearances: 2
Titles: 2*
Coaches: Vince Lombardi, Phil Bengtson
Hall of Famers: Herb Adderley, Willie Davis, Forrest Gregg, Paul Hornung, Henry Jordan, Lombardi, Ray Nitschke, Jim Ringo, Bart Starr, Jim Taylor, Emlen Tunnell, Willie Wood

1970s: Steelers
Record: 99-44-1
Super Bowl appearances: 4
Titles: 4
Coach: Chuck Noll
Hall of Famers: Mel Blount, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Franco Harris, Jack Lambert, Noll, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, Mike Webster

1980s: 49ers
Record: 104-47-1
Super Bowl appearances: 4
Titles: 4
Coaches: Bill Walsh, George Seifert
Hall of Famers: Ronnie Lott, Joe Montana, Walsh

1990s: Cowboys
Record: 101-59
Super Bowl appearances: 3
Titles: 3
Coaches: Jimmy Johnson, Barry Switzer, Chan Gailey
Hall of Famers: None yet

2000s: Patriots
Record: 53-27
Super Bowl appearances: 3
Titles: 2
Coach: Bill Belichick
Hall of Famers: None yet

* The Packers also won three NFL Championship Games in the early 1960s, predating the Super Bowl.

** A win next Sunday would make the Pats 3-for-3 in the Super Bowl this decade.

FAB FIVE

Former 49ers coach Bill Walsh ranks the QBs from the five greatest NFL dynasties:

1. Joe Montana, 49ers: "He could do everything. He was so resourceful. Joe did everything beautifully and he had composure. He threw a soft ball that could be caught and his receivers could make plays on."

2. Terry Bradshaw, Steelers: "He was a great athlete with an incredible arm. A tremendous competitor. He carried his team when he felt like it, otherwise the team would win on defense."

3. Troy Aikman, Cowboys: "I just thought he was a tremendous all-around player. He had everything. They had a great team, also."

4. Tom Brady, Patriots: "He is just a natural. He is smooth, poised, totally composed. He reminds me of Joe. I think Joe was a little quicker and a little more active on his feet."

5. Bart Starr, Packers: "Simply because he was with such a great team, he never really had to carry his team."

Originally published on January 29, 2005
Gary Myers is a News sports columnist

min0 lee · 01-30-2005, 12:02 PM

I know I am going to get flamed for this but I read it and re-read it and I agree with it. The patriots do belong up there but to say they are the best ever....no.
While I never saw the 60's Packers play I have seen the 70's Steelers, 80's Niners and the 90's Cowboys and seeing the level of competition they all played against it's was far better than what we have seen this decade.
Think about it, it wasn't to long ago that in this decade the Giants (My team along with the Jets) went to the Super bowl and looked horrible against the Ravin's in 2000.
The level of competition these teams played throughout the decade was very good.
The Steelers played against the great Cowboy teams of Staubach, Too tall Jones and Tony Dorsett, and who can forget when the Raiders where the Raiders. That was real competition.

Flex · 01-30-2005, 12:20 PM

Mino, I just got home from leg day when i saw this article. i gotta recover for a few hours. Now normally, that article would be dead as fuckin' fried chicken, but later i'm going to tear this article apart.

For now, Alls i hafta say is when those other teams dominated in the earlier decades, there was MAYBE a few other good teams in the league to compete with them, IF THAT.

Due to free agency and the ridiculous talent, speed, size and strength ALL present NFL'ers possess, competition is SO MUCH higher nowadays. Look at the last 4 SB's. There is SO much parity in the NFL, that ANY team can make it, meaning MOST teams are good.

I'll be back in a while to tear that thing apart....

oaktownboy · 01-30-2005, 12:35 PM

list looks pretty good..as long as the patriots arent ranked higher than those other 4 teams u mentioned, i have no problem with it

min0 lee · 01-30-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flex

I'll be back in a while to tear that thing apart....

I'll be looking forward to it. Call me crazy but I like when you do that.........if you can do it this time.

Flex · 01-30-2005, 01:01 PM

Quote: