BJJ In The Real World

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 11:54 AM

I've been studying up on the various marital arts and have a question about one in particular.

I've watched numerous videos on BJJ and, at first glance, it looks impressive. The crucifix and rear naked choke can be deadly. And the arm bar can be devastating.

But, as I've watched the videos, I've noticed that even the good practitioners take a few moments to get the opponent into position. In a ring, this simply means more grappling. There are strict rules on what you may, and may not, do it a ring fight. However, in a real fight, what's to stop the opponent from gouging the eyes, striking the throat, or hard kicking the nuts of the BJJ practitioner? Any one of those can put him out of action.

Even if the BJJ guy can stop any of these blows, can he still get the opponent into position while fending off such deadly attacks?

So, my questions is: how well does BJJ work in a real fight?

Thanks for any insight!

NeilPearson · 12-03-2007, 12:06 PM

I don't know if there is anything as effective as just simply going for the eyes and throat.

**P-funk** · 12-03-2007, 12:45 PM

^^ x2

What is to stop any martial arts practitioner from getting kicked in the sack or their eyes poked out. I think with anything....learn it the best you can and become as good a technician as possible. Chances are, in the real world, if you can keep your cool and be comfortable with the stuff you know, you will get the job done before getting hit in the balls.

BigDyl · 12-03-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

I've been studying up on the various marital arts and have a question about one in particular.

I've watched numerous videos on BJJ and, at first glance, it looks impressive. The crucifix and rear naked choke can be deadly. And the arm bar can be devastating.

But, as I've watched the videos, I've noticed that even the good practitioners take a few moments to get the opponent into position. In a ring, this simply means more grappling. There are strict rules on what you may, and may not, do it a ring fight. However, in a real fight, what's to stop the opponent from gouging the eyes, striking the throat, or hard kicking the nuts of the BJJ practitioner? Any one of those can put him out of action.

Even if the BJJ guy can stop any of these blows, can he still get the opponent into position while fending off such deadly attacks?

So, my questions is: how well does BJJ work in a real fight?

Thanks for any insight!

BJJ is subjective in that it is meant to evolve as a MA. This is why it also encompases takedowns and striking. It doesn't mean you have to just grapple someone. You can do anything. It does emphasize ground fighting and submissions however.

BigDyl · 12-03-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

I don't know if there is anything as effective as just simply going for the eyes and throat.

Effective? Yes. Practical? No. It all depends on who you're fighting and if you want to kill them or not. Your extended arm for the eye or throat is a very easy armbar, or standing can be used for leverage in a throw or takedown. It's not as easy as you'd think...

Doublebase · 12-03-2007, 02:07 PM

The best art for street fighting IMO would be kickboxing. Although you need a lot of room to really strike. A lot of street fighting occurs in a crowded bar or at a house party in a small room. For that type of fighting I say wrestling would save your ass. Throw someone down and hold them there or lay blows on their head.

AKIRA · 12-03-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doublebase

The best art for street fighting IMO would be kickboxing. Although you need a lot of room to really strike. A lot of street fighting occurs in a crowded bar or at a house party in a small room. For that type of fighting I say wrestling would save your ass. Throw someone down and hold them there or lay blows on their head.

Id have to second this...well most of it.

In a REAL fight, that is...in the REAL world, there are no rules. Which means, your opponent may be more than one and you dont know it. Id like to see how good BJJ is when the guy's friend you are performing an arm bar on comes over and stomps in you the face.

One good hit can show everyone thats watching that you mean business. This will either scare off anyone about to jump in OR bring them out into the light.

Unrealistic? Yeah right. If one of my friends was in a rear naked choke and looked like he was dying, I will step in and get the fucker off him.

Id say anyone would do the same if they saw a dear friend not being able to breathe..

fufu · 12-03-2007, 02:25 PM

You're right, there are no rules in a street fight but having submission grappling skills is an extremely valuble asset to have on your side. You will own any ground combat, eye guages could easily be controlled and transitioned into an arm bar in alot of ground situations. Being kicked or grabbed in the balls...got me there, anything could happen in that situation.

I am not responding to your post really here, but the rear naked choke is a great move in any situation. Noone expects someone to take their back and when the choke is sunk in people panic and are virtually helpless.

AKIRA · 12-03-2007, 02:37 PM

Knowing BJJ isnt going to hurt you in a fight...unless thats all you aim for.

Think about it, in the real world, there is no bell, so technically, every kind of first punch is a sucker punch.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

^^ x2

What is to stop any martial arts practitioner from getting kicked in the sack or their eyes poked out. I think with anything....learn it the best you can and become as good a technician as possible. Chances are, in the real world, if you can keep your cool and be comfortable with the stuff you know, you will get the job done before getting hit in the balls.

I've won most of my fights by simply dodging the first punch. Mind you, I haven't fought any martial artists.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDyl

Effective? Yes. Practical? No. It all depends on who you're fighting and if you want to kill them or not. Your extended arm for the eye or throat is a very easy armbar, or standing can be used for leverage in a throw or takedown. It's not as easy as you'd think...

But as I watched in those videos, the practitioner just seemed to leave himself open to these attacks. If you don't train to prevent these, then how are you going to do it when it happens in the wild?

I watched where one of Gracie's students took on a Gung-fu fighter. The BJJ tore the shit out of the guy, but left himself open for a lot of face, neck, and groin shots.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

In a REAL fight, that is...in the REAL world, there are no rules. Which means, your opponent may be more than one and you dont know it. Id like to see how good BJJ is when the guy's friend you are performing an arm bar on comes over and stomps in you the face.

This was the next thing I was going to bring up. If a BJJ guy was fighting to get a guy into an arm bar, he has no way to defend himself. It seems that two on one (or more), a BJJ guys would get killed.

Doublebase · 12-03-2007, 03:25 PM

If you are fighting a big dude an armbar could really end up hurting you. The guy could just pick your ass up and slam you to the ground as shown on TUF season 3. That's saying you are under 200lbs. Or the dude is Hulk Hogan.

fufu · 12-03-2007, 03:44 PM

True, I do believe that the arm bar is not the best submission tactic to use. Most submissions will you leave you vunerable if the guy you are fighting has buddies around. A RNC will probably have you the most protected.

Also, an arm bar is a drastic move. I don't know how many people would do that planning to break someone's arm. Sure, if someone was trying to kill me and I happened to secure and arm bar I would pull until the fucker snapped. But that would be a huge dick move doing that to someone in a bar/party scuffle.

**Dale Mabry** · 12-03-2007, 03:45 PM

I think that the videos don't show that because it isn't done in the discipline. I imagine in a street fight the person demonstrating would cover up until something opens up. As for the groin shots, I seem to remember seeing Gracie take a ton of nut shots in the UFC during it's infancy, when it was allowed.

As for grappling/BJJ at a club, horrible idea. I got stomped by 4 guys in college because their boy hit me, I dove in and took him down, and as I got ready to smash him one of them roundhoused me while I was kneeling. The rest of them joined in, and I got to go home early.

BoneCrusher · 12-03-2007, 04:41 PM

Most fights last only 10 to 30 seconds. Those fights tend to be about who hits who best first. After the first 10 to 30 seconds they tend to hit the ground more often than not. That's where BJJ comes on strong.

What you see in the shows is not what you train for. Since people don't really train for TV they train for life you learn when you're doing a submission to expect the sac smacks and eye gouges, being bitten or w/e ... and my least favorite getting stabbed.

Unless you like getting kicked in the face by random strangers, then you don't do rnc's or arm-bars in a public brawl. This is what makes BJJ the weak game in the real world. Most people getting choked out with their own shirt is good enough so yeah stand up BJJ works there, but if you tried that on some guys you'd be unhappy about how it turned out. I'm serious about that getting stabbed part. If you're about to go under from getting choked out by some dude you don't know you will bust out the pocket knife and stick him in the leg cuz brotha ... who knows wtf that guy will do to you while you're unconscious. You might not ever wake up. That's the position you put your opponent in when you choke him out ... shear horrifying panic.

Training at a place that's dedicated to one discipline is old school. Find a facility that trains for a well rounded MMA approach to self defense. Besides being more practical it's also more fun. MMA guys tend to apply more of a whole body approach to training too. Weights, diet, road work, kicking a guy in the sac, elbow strikes from full mount or the crucifix ... all great fun to be had training in MMA.

I wish the best of times for you on this DOMS. After you get past that first year it really gets fun. You get some fighting skills and can go at it with people for real in the gym. It is a great growth opportunity.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

Most fights last only 10 to 30 seconds. Those fights tend to be about who hits who best first. After the first 10 to 30 seconds they tend to hit the ground more often than not. That's where BJJ comes on strong.

What you see in the shows is not what you train for. Since people don't really train for TV they train for life you learn when you're doing a submission to expect the sac smacks and eye gouges, being bitten or w/e ... and my least favorite getting stabbed.

Unless you like getting kicked in the face by random strangers, then you don't do rnc's or arm-bars in a public brawl. This is what makes BJJ the weak game in the real world. Most people getting choked out with their own shirt is good enough so yeah stand up BJJ works there, but if you tried that on some guys you'd be unhappy about how it turned out. I'm serious about that getting stabbed part. If you're about to go under from getting choked out by some dude you don't know you will bust out the pocket knife and stick him in the leg cuz brotha ... who knows wtf that guy will do to you while you're unconscious. You might not ever wake up. That's the position you put your opponent in when you choke him out ... shear horrifying panic.

Training at a place that's dedicated to one discipline is old school. Find a facility that trains for a well rounded MMA approach to self defense. Besides being more practical it's also more fun. MMA guys tend to apply more of a whole body approach to training too. Weights, diet, road work, kicking a guy in the sac, elbow strikes from full mount or the crucifix ... all great fun to be had training in MMA.

I wish the best of times for you on this DOMS. After you get past that first year it really gets fun. You get some fighting skills and can go at it with people for real in the gym. It is a great growth opportunity.

All solid advice, BC.

BTW, I'm not knocking BJJ here, I'm just trying to understand the role of marital arts in the real world.

I'm not going to do BJJ, I'm going to do Krav Maga. This is the sort of martial art that I've been looking for. I just need to make sure the teacher really knows his stuff.

danny81 · 12-03-2007, 05:56 PM

it worked well for the gracies in brazil who used it alot in the street. also wahts stopping a BJJ guy ro m kicking in the nuts and eye gouging to. its gud 2 add to yo aresenel

AKIRA · 12-03-2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

All solid advice, BC.

BTW, I'm not knocking BJJ here, I'm just trying to understand the role of marital arts in the real world.

I'm not going to do BJJ, I'm going to do Krav Maga. This is the sort of martial art that I've been looking for. I just need to make sure the teacher really knows his stuff.

I always have too. But when it comes down to it, there really isnt one good answer. Having a variety of belts in different fields would be best, IMO.

BoneCrusher · 12-03-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

All solid advice, BC.

BTW, I'm not knocking BJJ here, I'm just trying to understand the role of marital arts in the real world.

I'm not going to do BJJ, I'm going to do Krav Maga. This is the sort of martial art that I've been looking for. I just need to make sure the teacher really knows his stuff.

Krav Maga is killer stuff. Israeli special forces do some crazy shit with it. They're up against the Islamic fighting styles so small edged weapons training is part of the deal. Good times

danny81 · 12-03-2007, 07:43 PM

for a street fight nothing is better then boxing

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

I always have too. But when it comes down to it, there really isnt one good answer. Having a variety of belts in different fields would be best, IMO.

No doubt. I want to build a solid foundation in Krav Maga, and then add to it.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

Krav Maga is killer stuff. Israeli special forces do some crazy shit with it. They're up against the Islamic fighting styles so small edged weapons training is part of the deal. Good times

It took me a while to find a style that I'd like. I'm really looking forward to it.

DOMS · 12-03-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny81

for a street fight nothing is better then boxing

Says Mr. Razorblade Mouth.

12-03-2007, 12:45 PM	#3
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,269	^^ x2 What is to stop any martial arts practitioner from getting kicked in the sack or their eyes poked out. I think with anything....learn it the best you can and become as good a technician as possible. Chances are, in the real world, if you can keep your cool and be comfortable with the stuff you know, you will get the job done before getting hit in the balls.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-03-2007, 02:25 PM	#8
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 15,703 Photos: 4	You're right, there are no rules in a street fight but having submission grappling skills is an extremely valuble asset to have on your side. You will own any ground combat, eye guages could easily be controlled and transitioned into an arm bar in alot of ground situations. Being kicked or grabbed in the balls...got me there, anything could happen in that situation. I am not responding to your post really here, but the rear naked choke is a great move in any situation. Noone expects someone to take their back and when the choke is sunk in people panic and are virtually helpless.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

12-03-2007, 02:37 PM	#9
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,494 Photos: 3	Knowing BJJ isnt going to hurt you in a fight...unless thats all you aim for. Think about it, in the real world, there is no bell, so technically, every kind of first punch is a sucker punch.
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

12-03-2007, 03:44 PM	#14
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 15,703 Photos: 4	True, I do believe that the arm bar is not the best submission tactic to use. Most submissions will you leave you vunerable if the guy you are fighting has buddies around. A RNC will probably have you the most protected. Also, an arm bar is a drastic move. I don't know how many people would do that planning to break someone's arm. Sure, if someone was trying to kill me and I happened to secure and arm bar I would pull until the fucker snapped. But that would be a huge dick move doing that to someone in a bar/party scuffle.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

12-03-2007, 03:45 PM	#15
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,748 Photos: 10	I think that the videos don't show that because it isn't done in the discipline. I imagine in a street fight the person demonstrating would cover up until something opens up. As for the groin shots, I seem to remember seeing Gracie take a ton of nut shots in the UFC during it's infancy, when it was allowed. As for grappling/BJJ at a club, horrible idea. I got stomped by 4 guys in college because their boy hit me, I dove in and took him down, and as I got ready to smash him one of them roundhoused me while I was kneeling. The rest of them joined in, and I got to go home early.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

12-03-2007, 12:06 PM	#2
NeilPearson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,197	I don't know if there is anything as effective as just simply going for the eyes and throat.

12-03-2007, 02:07 PM	#6
Doublebase Lightweight, Ya Buddy! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philly Posts: 6,397	The best art for street fighting IMO would be kickboxing. Although you need a lot of room to really strike. A lot of street fighting occurs in a crowded bar or at a house party in a small room. For that type of fighting I say wrestling would save your ass. Throw someone down and hold them there or lay blows on their head.

12-03-2007, 03:25 PM	#13
Doublebase Lightweight, Ya Buddy! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philly Posts: 6,397	If you are fighting a big dude an armbar could really end up hurting you. The guy could just pick your ass up and slam you to the ground as shown on TUF season 3. That's saying you are under 200lbs. Or the dude is Hulk Hogan.

12-03-2007, 04:41 PM	#16
BoneCrusher Lift or Die Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 8,311	Most fights last only 10 to 30 seconds. Those fights tend to be about who hits who best first. After the first 10 to 30 seconds they tend to hit the ground more often than not. That's where BJJ comes on strong. What you see in the shows is not what you train for. Since people don't really train for TV they train for life you learn when you're doing a submission to expect the sac smacks and eye gouges, being bitten or w/e ... and my least favorite getting stabbed. Unless you like getting kicked in the face by random strangers, then you don't do rnc's or arm-bars in a public brawl. This is what makes BJJ the weak game in the real world. Most people getting choked out with their own shirt is good enough so yeah stand up BJJ works there, but if you tried that on some guys you'd be unhappy about how it turned out. I'm serious about that getting stabbed part. If you're about to go under from getting choked out by some dude you don't know you will bust out the pocket knife and stick him in the leg cuz brotha ... who knows wtf that guy will do to you while you're unconscious. You might not ever wake up. That's the position you put your opponent in when you choke him out ... shear horrifying panic. Training at a place that's dedicated to one discipline is old school. Find a facility that trains for a well rounded MMA approach to self defense. Besides being more practical it's also more fun. MMA guys tend to apply more of a whole body approach to training too. Weights, diet, road work, kicking a guy in the sac, elbow strikes from full mount or the crucifix ... all great fun to be had training in MMA. I wish the best of times for you on this DOMS. After you get past that first year it really gets fun. You get some fighting skills and can go at it with people for real in the gym. It is a great growth opportunity.

12-03-2007, 05:56 PM	#18
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764	it worked well for the gracies in brazil who used it alot in the street. also wahts stopping a BJJ guy ro m kicking in the nuts and eye gouging to. its gud 2 add to yo aresenel
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764

12-03-2007, 07:43 PM	#21
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764	for a street fight nothing is better then boxing
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764