Thread: 531 Starting Strength Westside Bill Starr's 5x5 Blue Collar

Someday I'm going to get me one of these.

And speaking of prowler flu, found this cool video.

These programs all work but they were designed for lifters at much different levels of experience:

SS - for guys who are brand new to barbell training who can make progress each week or even each workout

5x5/531 - for guys who can still make linear progress but have stalled a bit on SS. It allows you to accumulate gains over weeks or months but still lets you make linear progress

Westside - for powerlifters who can't make linear progress anymore. Less experienced guys can use it, but they're going to be doing more work than they need. Also, less experienced lifters struggle with this program because they rarely know their bodies and their lifts well enough to figure out what they need to do. Westside is very flexible - that is both a strength and a weakness of the program.

I like what Rippetoe has to say on this subject. I'm paraphrasing, but his idea is that you don't want to make your training any tougher or more complex than it needs to be. If you can still make progress on a simple program, there's no reason to introduce complexity into it.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I train a Bellatore fighter and usually did a ton of explosive olympic training. No one could touch his strength. he tried the 20 rep deads and loved it.

Which one? Always curious to here what others are doing with MMA conditioning bc it's such a broad topic.

Originally Posted by Rodja

Which one? Always curious to here what others are doing with MMA conditioning bc it's such a broad topic.

I am not at liberty to tell in all honesty.

Got the book and started the 5/3/1 on Friday. Its similar to what I have been doing with the 4 main lifts, mainly 5x5 with some pyramiding, and seems like it will help me break through some of my plateaus.

Thanks guys!

Good luck! Be careful with the accessory work. Dont use isolation because it doesnt give much in returns as far as growth and the synergy between groups.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Good luck! Be careful with the accessory work. Dont use isolation because it doesnt give much in returns as far as growth and the synergy between groups.

Will do.

Today I did shoulder press x 3's. In the past I have always matched my shoulder press after doing deadlifts. I guess I underestimated my actual shoulder strength and raised my weights after I my warm up. For accessory I did what Wendler recommends and dropped my weight to 50% and did 3 sets of 12.

145 x 3
155 x 3
165 x 6

3 sets of 12 @ 80lbs

My shoulder have never burned like they did in my life!!

Hell~

hey guys heres a great interview and basic layout for the 531 program. i would like to try this myself in the future. when i do i will let yah know. 1st i'm lookin to loose a little flab.
T NATION | How to Build Pure Strength

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Hell I'll send you a great spreadsheet for the 531 that I use. It's very convenient to use and works well.

Here's the address for anyone who wants to use it: http://www.doosoft.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?file=531

I am sending you a PM with questions in regards to your spreadsheat and proper useage.

Thanks!

I just finished week 1 of my third cycle of 5/3/1. The gains have been steady but pretty good, particularly in squats and deads. However, my bench hasn't gone up at all.

I attiribute this mostly to technique, as I've been trying to learn leg drive for a while but I think I fuck myself over on the rep outs.

I'm now cutting, using heavy assistance work in low reps. What I thought would be useful is on military day do some heavy-ish bench assistance sets (I also do deads on squat day and squats and dead day, so that I get to do all the lifts more frequent while not overworking certain muscles during the cut) so that I can practice bench technique with harder weights.

My criticism of the boring but big (I know Wendler would say my opinion is wrong, lol...granted he's elite but this is coming from a non-elite) is that the 5 x 10 of the main lift is good for some muscle building, as the prescribed intensity is good enough to stimulate hypertrophy without frying the CNS as most gym go'ers would naturally do with rep range like that but those high rep sets are terrible for developing technique.

For instance, my best heavy sets for bench currently are 5 x 210 and 4 x 215. When I did the 5 x 10 after the rep out I would usually use 125 - 135 (as per instructions). Of course, on those sets my leg drive would be awesome, my technique was smooth. Well ya, it's a really light weight. But, it's a different story when you toss on 75 lbs and expect to be as smooth. I prefer higher frequency heavy lifting, even if it's low volume. I need to learn technique with sub-maximal loads or close to.

Here's my new military day setup for while cutting (carb cycle..training days are "high" carb)..just did this workout last night...

(1.) Military Press: 5/3/1
(2.) Bench Press: 4 x 5 @ 85% reduced max or higher
(3.) Chinups: 5 x 5

So, on bench my best rep out is 195 for 8, so I did sets of 5 at 185, 190, 195, 195. This way, I work hard enough that I'm getting strength benefit but never came close to failure overworking myself and I got to practice technique with a weight that actually requires my body to work as one, and not just remain in some pro lifter looking position. It's one thing to set yourself with that technique but it's another to actually use it and move weight you wouldn't otherwise be able to move.

Phineas, regarding your new rendition, I think personally, that you're going to overtrain on those reps. I think you need to stick with the way Wendler set it up only because your CNS may be fried in a matter of weeks.
As for your bench, EliteFTS put out a video that I think might be worthy of you taking a look at.
Finally, realize that your gains will be stronger in some areas and not in others. My military press went crazy, as did my deadlift, but my squat and my bench was slower and much more tedious in terms of gains.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Phineas, regarding your new rendition, I think personally, that you're going to overtrain on those reps. I think you need to stick with the way Wendler set it up only because your CNS may be fried in a matter of weeks.
As for your bench, EliteFTS put out a video that I think might be worthy of you taking a look at.
Finally, realize that your gains will be stronger in some areas and not in others. My military press went crazy, as did my deadlift, but my squat and my bench was slower and much more tedious in terms of gains.

Really? It seems like a typical low-volume cutting approach, to me.

I would stick to Wendler's approach but he doesn't cover calorie deficits. His assistance work seems to be higher reps/volume.

That's another thing; cutting tends to lose a bit of strength. I'd stick with what you're doing, but just realize that you have a weak area and that you're cutting as well.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

These programs all work but they were designed for lifters at much different levels of experience:

SS - for guys who are brand new to barbell training who can make progress each week or even each workout

5x5/531 - for guys who can still make linear progress but have stalled a bit on SS. It allows you to accumulate gains over weeks or months but still lets you make linear progress

Westside - for powerlifters who can't make linear progress anymore. Less experienced guys can use it, but they're going to be doing more work than they need. Also, less experienced lifters struggle with this program because they rarely know their bodies and their lifts well enough to figure out what they need to do. Westside is very flexible - that is both a strength and a weakness of the program.

I like what Rippetoe has to say on this subject. I'm paraphrasing, but his idea is that you don't want to make your training any tougher or more complex than it needs to be. If you can still make progress on a simple program, there's no reason to introduce complexity into it.

Good post, very true.

I do think a lot of people switch to more complex programs too soon because they assume their gains have stopped. I'm guilty of it too. Every now and again i switch back to a linear program and bam - more gains.

I find 5/3/1 extremely enjoyable because of the simplicity of it. I like the fact that some days I'm pressed for time so all I have to do is do my main lift and get out (guilt free).

At first I didn't feel there was enough intensity in the workouts, but lately as the weight has gone up I've really started to enjoy them. I even started wearing a heart rate monitor whilst lifting and the other week I repped out 9 deadlifts @ 127.5 kg and when finished my heart rate was 171bpm, truly recked me.

Been telling everybody about it!!!

Great job yek

Originally Posted by juggernaut

That's another thing; cutting tends to lose a bit of strength. I'd stick with what you're doing, but just realize that you have a weak area and that you're cutting as well.

Thanks, Jugg.

I'm being very careful to cover all the bases in terms of macros, supplements, recovery, etc. I'm also not falling into the "upping the cardio" mentality. In fact, I've decreased my running, and I'm training for a 10k lol. It's okay though my main training is done so two very short distance sprints are all I need at this point as it's 1 month away as of today. Basically I can just "refine".

I'm following Built's fewer meals approach. I used to always doubt it not because I thought she was wrong (that's impossible lol) but because I couldn't see myself going for so long without a meal on so few calories. Well smack my ass and call me a mormon, it works! 3 meals and 1 snack works very well. I don't have breakfast until about 4 hours after I wake up and shockingly I feel great.

I opted for the low volume, heavy lifting because (a) I've always read that's the way to train on a cut and (b) when cutting I can still train hard but I just don't have the same stamina. Low rep heavy work never fazed me much or give me much DOMS, either. The day after a heavy squat workout I'm less sore than I would be after a higher rep workout. Go figure....

Originally Posted by yeksetm

I find 5/3/1 extremely enjoyable because of the simplicity of it. I like the fact that some days I'm pressed for time so all I have to do is do my main lift and get out (guilt free).

At first I didn't feel there was enough intensity in the workouts, but lately as the weight has gone up I've really started to enjoy them. I even started wearing a heart rate monitor whilst lifting and the other week I repped out 9 deadlifts @ 127.5 kg and when finished my heart rate was 171bpm, truly recked me.

Been telling everybody about it!!!

Ya, it's nice to have tangible results to know you actually achieved something at the gym today.

I also like having all the weight for my sets pre-determined. No guess work.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I also like having all the weight for my sets pre-determined. No guess work.

Now that I agree with!

Originally Posted by Phineas

Thanks, Jugg.

I'm being very careful to cover all the bases in terms of macros, supplements, recovery, etc. I'm also not falling into the "upping the cardio" mentality. In fact, I've decreased my running, and I'm training for a 10k lol. It's okay though my main training is done so two very short distance sprints are all I need at this point as it's 1 month away as of today. Basically I can just "refine".

I'm following Built's fewer meals approach. I used to always doubt it not because I thought she was wrong (that's impossible lol) but because I couldn't see myself going for so long without a meal on so few calories. Well smack my ass and call me a mormon, it works! 3 meals and 1 snack works very well. I don't have breakfast until about 4 hours after I wake up and shockingly I feel great.

I opted for the low volume, heavy lifting because (a) I've always read that's the way to train on a cut and (b) when cutting I can still train hard but I just don't have the same stamina. Low rep heavy work never fazed me much or give me much DOMS, either. The day after a heavy squat workout I'm less sore than I would be after a higher rep workout. Go figure....

Do you use carbs centered around your workout? I usually keep my carbs preworkout and right after. This will help you to bring in more adequate energy, especially on a cut. I then add my fat and protein only to my other meals. Ask Built about her carb cycling methodology. It's great. I use it.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Do you use carbs centered around your workout? I usually keep my carbs preworkout and right after. This will help you to bring in more adequate energy, especially on a cut. I then add my fat and protein only to my other meals. Ask Built about her carb cycling methodology. It's great. I use it.

I do carbs pre-workout.

If it wasn't for the rep outs, I might move them post, but for those torture sets I like to have some extra volume in my stomach. Even if it's just for mental confidence, I think I would feel disadvantaged on a squat rep out knowing I had no carbs in me, even if it was fine. It's a psychological thing with the rep outs I find. I need to really be primed.

Ya, basically everything I'm doing is taken from Built haha. The biggest and best changes on this cut from my previous unsuccessful cuts (where I gave up after a month to a month and half after lifts decreased) is I'm eating fewer meals, and pushing them back in the day. Amazing how much more satisfied I am that way. I think that I'm not starting the day with carbs like I normally do I'm not chasing that carb high. I start my day with this:

(wake up 7, eat at 11)

-3/4 cup no fat cottage cheese
-1 scoop whey isolate (this is 20 mins prior)

-4 whole eggs
-3 pieces turkey bacon
-80g broccoli (raw)
-3 tbls olive oil

This meals keeps me feeling great for hours and hours. Amazing!

I'm the opposite; I NEED carbs in the morning-getting up at 3:30 sucks ass. But I train a few people and then I train at 7am. I will have oatmeal or some type of carb and then after my workout, I'll have All in 1 and some more oatmeal. But that's about it. it encompasses about 200g of carbs within a four and a half hour window and then I'm done for the day with carbs. But I get what you're saying about volume. I should also mention that I only take in 66g on my non-lifting/cardio only days.

I recently became a fan of the 5/3/1. Worked great for me, but I was on and upping weights like crazy. Got sick for a month and now Im basically restarting. Read the T-Nation article that gives more info about the program so I plan on starting lower and progressing slower since I will be natty. Plus tendons took a beating from the meds I took.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I'm the opposite; I NEED carbs in the morning-getting up at 3:30 sucks ass. But I train a few people and then I train at 7am. I will have oatmeal or some type of carb and then after my workout, I'll have All in 1 and some more oatmeal. But that's about it. it encompasses about 200g of carbs within a four and a half hour window and then I'm done for the day with carbs. But I get what you're saying about volume. I should also mention that I only take in 66g on my non-lifting/cardio only days.

Out of curiosity, what are your total calories and macros for high carb and low carb days when cutting?

Originally Posted by Phineas

Out of curiosity, what are your total calories and macros for high carb and low carb days when cutting?

approximately 3250-3500; Unfortunately, my days are numbered because I'm going keto soon with one day of carbup.

where can i get the book?