HugeFreak

This question was prob. asked too many times but i couldnt find the answer. I'm looking for the best natural test builder, like tribulus based stacks, that really works and that contains no prohormones. I have used Probuilt Testrostrogain before and loved it but cant find it in the US.

my goal is to gain some lean mass and increase sex drive

thx

nni

tribulus doesnt boost test, so scratch things that contain that.

18+ - Activate Xtreme, Stoked
21+ - Activate Xtreme, Mass FX, Novedex XT etc.

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Built

Although tribulus does not increase testosterone in humans, it CAN boost sex-drive, at least, anecdotally.

Probably won't hurt you either, and it's cheap.

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nni

maca can boost libido very well, moreso than trib from anecdotal reports. very cheap.

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Built

Oooh, good to know. What dosing, nni?

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nni

2-4 grams should give a nice boost.

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HugeFreak

thanks for the replies


Excsue my ignorance, I've never heard of Activate Xtreme, Mass FX, Novedex XT are they 100% natural in the sense that they support the body to produce more LH or test, but do not contain anything that is transformed by the liver into hormones?


as for tribulus u guys are saying that there is no evidence it increases test levels? i guess i could buy that, even though i read somewhere that supposedly a study had been made with tribestan and had shown significant increase. I've used TestoFX recently and didnt see a difference but as i said above i have used Probuilt Testostrogain in the past and it was impressive.

i wonder if the problem is not that most brands just dont deliver the quality/quantity/concentration required for results because the plant is expansive (hence my quest to find the best brand)

i just read that maca is a plant, its only for sex drive or also for lean mass gains? any good brands?

finally a good website to order? i live in santa monica and even in venice i know several guys who could get me the real deal but to find natural products im totally at large

Built

Hugefreak, allow me to introduce you to... PubMed Home

Search for yourself. There is no evidence anywhere in the literature that tribulus increases testosterone in humans.

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jchappj

I've had good luck with IM Labs Tribulus as far as increasing libido. Now this could be totally placebo effect, certainly there's that possibility, but whatever the case it works for me.

Peace!

Built

I don't think it is. Hubby's noticed this from Trib.

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chobby192

Other way to boost the test. naturally is to take supplement that will help you control the estrogen, so that way whatever test. that our body produces will stay as test and not turning into estrogen. Am I right?

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nni

you are correct with respect to the first paragraph. sbmuscle is a good website, now makes good products for maca. not lean mass, just libido.

as for trib, i wrote a blog entry elsewhere, here it is...

Tribulus Terrestris, The Choice of the Animal Kingdom
**Preface**The following is just my view and has nothing to do with my affiliation.****

You’ve no doubt seen an ad for a test booster comparing the effects to steroids or straight testosterone. You’ve seen the 1000000% raise in test levels promised and when you checked the label, you no doubt saw Tribulus proudly listed. Tribulus Terrestris has been the industry standard for test boosting for a long time now; but does it actually work?
It works without a doubt (if you don’t walk upright that is)! Let’s look at a sampling of studies…

1) Study of Furostenol Glycoside Fraction of Tribulus terresteris on Male Sexual Function in Rats.

Tribulus terrestris Linn. (Zygophyllaceae) has long been used in the traditional Chinese and Indian systems of medicine for the treatment of various ailments and is popularly claimed to improve sexual function in men. In this study, we have examined the aphrodisiac properties of the furostenol glycoside fraction of Tribulus terrestris extract (TT-FG) in male castrated rats. Adult Wister rats were castrated and divided into five groups of six animals each and treated with either vehicle, sildenafil (5 mg/kg, p.o.) or TT-FG (5, 10, and 25 mg/kg, p.o.) once daily for 14 days. Sexual behavioral and orientational activity was observed after acute (1 day) and subacute (7 and 14 days) treatment. Serum testosterone levels were also measured on day 14 by withdrawing blood from retroorbital plexus. The improvement in sexual behavior as noted by increase in mounting frequency (MF), intromission frequency (IF), and ejaculation latency (EL) and decrease in mounting latency (ML), intromission latency (IL), and postejaculation interval (PEI) after TT-FG treatment in castrated rats in our study implies increase in the desired component of sexuality. TT-FG was found to increase orientational activity parameters such as licking and ano-and genital grooming and decreased climbing and nongential grooming by male rats indicating increased sexual stimulation and lack of interest toward external environment after treatment with TT-FG. These results are supported by increased serum testosterone levels in male rats after 14 days of treatment by TT-FG. In conclusion, the furostenol glycoside fraction of Tribulus terrestris exhibited good aphrodisiac properties.

2) Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus Terrestris extract (Protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats.

Tribulus terrestris (TT) has long been used in the traditional Chinese and Indian systems of medicine for the treatment of various ailments and is popularly claimed to improve sexual functions in man. Sexual behaviour and intracavernous pressure (ICP) were studied in both normal and castrated rats to further understand the role of TT containing protodioscin (PTN) as an aphrodisiac. Adult Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into five groups of 8 each that included distilled water treated (normal and castrated), testosterone treated (normal and castrated, 10 mg/kg body weight, subcutaneously, bi-weekly) and TT treated (castrated, 5 mg/kg body weight, orally once daily). Decreases in body weight, prostate weight and ICP were observed among the castrated groups of rats compared to the intact group. There was an overall reduction in the sexual behaviour parameters in the castrated groups of rats as reflected by decrease in mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF) and increase in mount, intromission, ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, EL) as well as post-ejaculatory interval (PEI). Compared to the castrated control, treatment of castrated rats (with either testosterone or TT extract) showed increase in prostate weight and ICP that were statistically significant. There was also a mild to moderate improvement of the sexual behaviour parameters as evidenced by increase in MF and IF; decrease in ML, IL and PEI. These results were statistically significant. It is concluded that TT extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity probably due to androgen increasing property of TT (observed in our earlier study on primates).

3) The hormonal effects of Tribulus terrestris and its role in the management of male erectile dysfunction – an evaluation using primates, rabbit and rat

Hormonal effects of Tribulus terrestris (TT) were evaluated in primates, rabbit and rat to identify its usefulness in the management of erectile dysfunction (ED). TT extract was administered intravenously, as a bolus dose of 7.5, 15 and 30 mg/kg, in primates for acute study. Rabbits and normal rats were treated with 2.5, 5 and 10 mg/kg of TT extract orally for 8 weeks, for chronic study. In addition, castrated rats were treated either with testosterone cypionate (10 mg/kg, subcutaneously; biweekly for 8 weeks) or TT orally (5 mg/kg daily for 8 weeks). Blood samples were analyzed for testosterone (T), dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS) levels using radioimmunoassay. In primates, the increases in T (52%), DHT (31%) and DHEAS (29%) at 7.5 mg/kg were statistically significant. In rabbits, both T and DHT were increased compared to control, however, only the increases in DHT (by 30% and 32% at 5 and 10 mg/kg) were statistically significant. In castrated rats, increases in T levels by 51% and 25% were observed with T and TT extract respectively that were statistically significant. TT increases some of the sex hormones, possibly due to the presence of protodioscin in the extract. TT may be useful in mild to moderate cases of ED.

Wow, that is some pretty compelling evidence. Now like I said, this is a sample of the studies available, so let’s look at them. In study 1, castrated rats not only received a boost in libido, but a boost in test levels, awesome! In study 2, Tribulus showed a possible androgen increasing property in rats, woohoo! In 3, primates, rabbit and rats, (oh my), all received an increase in test levels, and it was possibly due to protodioscin, (more on that later). This is all amazing, that is if you are a rat, a castrated rat, a rabbit, or a “primate.” Yes humans are primates, but not the ones used for testing. I am assuming that humans are reading this, so let’s see how some humans fared…

4) The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.

Abstract: objective:: The aim of the current study is to investigate the influence of Tribulus terrestris extract on androgen metabolism in young males. Design and methods:: Twenty-one healthy young 20–36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125kg were randomly separated into three groups—two experimental (each n =7) and a control (placebo) one (n =7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone, androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576h from the beginning of the supplementation. Results:: There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean±S.D.: 15.75±1.75nmol/l); TT2 (mean±S.D.: 16.32±1.57nmol/l); controls (mean±S.D.: 17.74±1.09nmol/l) (p >0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean±S.D.: 1.927±0.126ng/ml); TT2 (mean±S.D.: 2.026±0.256ng/ml); controls (mean±S.D.: 1.952±0.236ng/ml) (p >0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean±S.D.: 4.662±0.274U/l); TT2 (mean±S.D.: 4.103±0.869U/l); controls (mean±S.D.: 4.170±0.406U/l) (p >0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.

5) THE EFFECT OF FIVE WEEKS OF TRIBULUS TERRESTRIS SUPPLEMENTATION ON MUSCLE STRENGTH AND BODY COMPOSITION DURING PRESEASON TRAINING IN ELITE RUGBY LEAGUE PLAYERS.

Tribulus terrestris is an herbal nutritional supplement that is promoted to produce large gains in strength and lean muscle mass in 5-28 days (15, 18). Although some manufacturers claim T. terrestris will not lead to a positive drug test, others have suggested that T. terrestris may increase the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio, which may place athletes at risk of a positive drug test. The purpose of the study was to determine the effect of T. terrestris on strength, fat free mass, and the urinary T/E ratio during 5 weeks of preseason training in elite rugby league players. Twenty-two Australian elite male rugby league players (mean ± SD; age = 19.8 ± 2.9 years; weight = 88.0 ± 9.5 kg) were match-paired and randomly assigned in a double-blind manner to either a T. terrestris (n = 11) or placebo (n = 11) group. All subjects performed structured heavy resistance training as part of the club’s preseason preparations. A T. terrestris extract (450 mg?d-1) or placebo capsules were consumed once daily for 5 weeks. Muscular strength, body composition, and the urinary T/E ratio were monitored prior to and after supplementation. After 5 weeks of training, strength and fat free mass increased significantly without any between-group differences. No between-group differences were noted in the urinary T/E ratio. It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days. Furthermore, T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency’s urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1.

6) The Effects of Tribulus Terrestris on Body Composition and Exercise Performance in Resistance-Trained Males.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the herbal preparation Tribulus terrestris (tribulus) on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males. Fifteen subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo or tribulus (3.21 mg per kg body weight daily) group. Body weight, body composition, maximal strength, dietary intake, and mood states were determined before and after an 8-week exercise (periodized resistance training) and supplementation period. There were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Muscle endurance (determined by the maximal number of repetitions at 100Ð200% of body weight) increased for the bench and leg press exercises in the placebo group (p < .05; bench press ±28.4%, leg press ±28.6%), while the tribulus group experienced an increase in leg press strength only (bench press ±3.1%, not significant; leg press ±28.6%, p < .05). Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.

Wait a minute, what the hell just happened? We were just breeding super rats and rabbits, although honestly it’s hard to breed castrated rats, and now in humans, nothing. In study 4, no change in test….WHAT!? In study 5, no extra mass and no change in test…. WHAT!? In study 6, no change in strength with respect to placebo…. WHAT!?

Well what happened? It seems that the behavior of Tribulus Terrestris in animals cannot be replicated in humans, and that’s ok. This type of thing happens all the time, it’s part of the research process. You find a compound that has a desired effect in rats, you move onto rabbits, primates etc. If that is promising you move onto humans, if that is promising, rejoice! If it is not, you ditch it and move on. So why didn’t we ditch Tribulus and move on? Well, placebo apparently has a price tag to it, and it sells well.

Now earlier I mentioned protodioscin, and this has become a common excuse heard from fans of Tribulus. “The studies didn’t focus on protodioscin, and that is what actually works in trib.” People say the same thing for saponins, but these arguments lack logic. If these are the magical components of Tribulus that work, wouldn’t there be a result in humans then? I mean, sure it isn’t standardized for that specifically, but it is still present and should be exerting an effect, no? Shouldn’t there be the slightest effect, which would urge us on to find out what the slight boost is coming from? No? Is it so magical that it doesn’t even show up to the study unless it is the focus? Well this certainly is a special compound, it might be the diva of test boosters. You’re not buying this are you, well neither am I.

The science seems to suggest that trib works in animals, but not in humans, any arguments beyond that are either extremely wishful thinking or outright deception. If you have a castrated rat and want him to the baddest asexual rodent in the neighborhood, then load him up on Tribulus and watch him get “swole.” In the off chance that you might be a human being, you might want to avoid Tribulus Terrestris if you want to boost testosterone levels.



you are kind of right, what it does is more or less suppress the estrogen levels to confuse your body to produce more test for conversion. the conversion is blocked so the test stays elevated. that is extremely simplified.

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T_man

I need something that reduces my sex drive. damn.

Cheat on your girlfriend, not on your meal.

rahaas

Marriage>>>kids>>>bills>>>work>>>death.

Simple progressive systematic but effective decline.

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HugeFreak

so whats a good product/brand of oestrogen reducer? after having read a few studies, I have absolutly no fate in just comparing labels of say saw palmetto and taking the one with highest content. they apparently fail badly to deliver whats on the label.

thanks to Built i found about pubmed home. is it supposed to contain a large % of the medical litterature? so yesterday i read the abstracts used by nni (and a few others on the that site). this is indeed contradictory, and i dont know what to think of all that. with all due respect, however, i really dont think the difference in these studies is humans vs animals. humans and primates are genetically almost the same, much more than primates vs rabbits and rats.

as for sex drive, i feel like T_man often, and I'm nowhere near the libido killers that rahaas point out (im even scared to have a girlfriend! hahah) I'm coming to realize that my problem is really stupid, but i cant seem to control it. every now and then my libido goes through the roof, and then combined with stress (like a major professional exam) i fall into total incontrollable hypersexuality and jerk off like a nymphomaniac schizophrenic for hours (like up to 12+ hours daily) as the exam comes closer. its a total miracle that i pass the exams, but once they are over I hit clubs to celebrate and i meet girls easily but my boner isnt the boner i had 2 weeks earlier i should really ban porn from my life. i actually once discussed that with a doctor and he said it looked like i have kleine-levin syndrome but without the depression. his suggestions basically boiled down to trying to become a pussy and learn to "open my heart and be vulnerable" well he can go f$%k himself. anyway in the mean time i just want to jump (re)start my potency for the summer, and add some lean mass for the pool parties.

if you were to choose one, Activate Xtreme, Mass FX, Stoked or Novedex XT?

HugeFreak

i meant chrysin not saw palmetto in my reply (that is waiting to be approved?)

egodog48

I am going to give someone the opportunity to run an Anabolic Edge/Paravol stack. See other thread I will post in a minute.

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TrojanMan60563

heavy squats and deads....if that fails try hooking up with a young hot girl and see if that doesn't do it for you ^^

nkira

Just watch some porn....

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