Post cycle: Prohormones!

**gopro** · 01-22-2003, 08:44 AM

There is alot of talk about prohormones. They may be even more popular than creatine right now. Alot of threads talk about what to do post-cycle in order to maintain gains. Most of the talk involves restoring the natural test/estrogen ratios, as it should. However, there is another thing that must be thought about when coming off PHs...the cortisol/test ratio.

Prohormones like steroids are inherently anti-catabolic as well as anabolic. This is why pro bodybuilders will use drugs like clen and Cytadren post cycle, along with anti-estrogens and test raisers...clen and Cytadren are anti-catabolics.

Now, in the "natural" BBing world we must find supplements that lower cortisol in order to keep your gains post PH cycle. 3 of the best are vitamin C, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine. Use these along with your test boosters/estrogen blockers and you will have a complete strategy for keeping your PH gains.

I suggest 3 g of vit C per day, 1500 mg of ALC per day, and 800 mg PS per day for 4 weeks after your cycle. Add this to some Tribex and 6-OXO and you are "golden!"

**dg806** · 01-23-2003, 07:43 AM

great post!

Vale Tudo · 01-23-2003, 07:48 AM

GP I know how much Tribex to use cycling off, but what about the OXO, like as far as amounts and such. Also where can I get 6-oxo?

**gopro** · 01-23-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vale Tudo
GP I know how much Tribex to use cycling off, but what about the OXO, like as far as amounts and such. Also where can I get 6-oxo?

6 OXO is put out by Ergopharm and should be available at most healthfood stores or online. I get it from DPS online. The dosage for 6 OXO is 3-6 caps 1 x per day with your last meal.

Vale Tudo · 01-23-2003, 10:03 AM

thanks bro, hey could you take a look at my other thread "starting my new cycle, and tell me what you think? thanks bro

Twin Peak · 01-23-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
There is alot of talk about prohormones. They may be even more popular than creatine right now. Alot of threads talk about what to do post-cycle in order to maintain gains. Most of the talk involves restoring the natural test/estrogen ratios, as it should. However, there is another thing that must be thought about when coming off PHs...the cortisol/test ratio.

Prohormones like steroids are inherently anti-catabolic as well as anabolic. This is why pro bodybuilders will use drugs like clen and Cytadren post cycle, along with anti-estrogens and test raisers...clen and Cytadren are anti-catabolics.

Now, in the "natural" BBing world we must find supplements that lower cortisol in order to keep your gains post PH cycle. 3 of the best are vitamin C, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine. Use these along with your test boosters/estrogen blockers and you will have a complete strategy for keeping your PH gains.

I suggest 3 g of vit C per day, 1500 mg of ALC per day, and 800 mg PS per day for 4 weeks after your cycle. Add this to some Tribex and 6-OXO and you are "golden!"

I know, I know, I am very anti-establishment lately. But can you please explain what all this means?

Why is cortisol running rampant post cycle? Do you have any studies on this? Due you have studies/evidence that show that these three things lower cortisol? L-Carnatine is not cheap. Assuming that they work where are you getting these doses from?

I ask, only because I have read tons on PH cycles and post cycle recovery and have heard MANY strategies (including recommendations from the gurus themselves, Par Deus, Pat Arnold, Bill Llewelyn, etc.) and have never heard these used.

I have heard that siginificantly reduced training volume along with elevated caloric level to keep gains.

And what is the use of Tribex? Most informed PH users DO NOT use it. I have read that it does little, except to boost your libido, if that was an issue.

The only true anti-e's out there are 6-Oxo and Formistat/stane by Prototype (also owned by Pat Arnold, who owns Ergopharm) and Moelcular Nutrition, and I think one other company.

Vale, that is the stuff that everyone is using post, not Tribex.

**gopro** · 01-23-2003, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I know, I know, I am very anti-establishment lately. But can you please explain what all this means?

Yes you are! But I will answer...

Why is cortisol running rampant post cycle? Do you have any studies on this? Due you have studies/evidence that show that these three things lower cortisol? L-Carnatine is not cheap. Assuming that they work where are you getting these doses from?

Don't ask me about studies CHICKEN DADDY...oops sorry. All of my knowledge comes from a combination of book research and personal experimentation and field studies. There is not alot of real studies available on pro hormone use, but they work very similar to steroids and have many of the same effects (albeit to a lesser degree). I am relying on my knowledge of anatomy/physiology/kinesiology here among other things.

Assuming these supps work, and they do, again my recommendations on dosages come about the same way Patrick Arnolds info comes from...years of research, experimentation, and trial and error.

I ask, only because I have read tons on PH cycles and post cycle recovery and have heard MANY strategies (including recommendations from the gurus themselves, Par Deus, Pat Arnold, Bill Llewelyn, etc.) and have never heard these used.

These guys don't recommend this stuff because they don't sell it. They are businessmen FIRST.

I have heard that siginificantly reduced training volume along with elevated caloric level to keep gains.

Using my strategy you will not need to lower your training volume post cycle.

And what is the use of Tribex? Most informed PH users DO NOT use it. I have read that it does little, except to boost your libido, if that was an issue.

Tribex DOES raise testosterone levels. Tribulis raises LH levels which in turn signals the body to raise test levels.

The only true anti-e's out there are 6-Oxo and Formistat/stane by Prototype (also owned by Pat Arnold, who owns Ergopharm) and Moelcular Nutrition, and I think one other company.

6 OXO is a great product...no argument there.

Vale, that is the stuff that everyone is using post, not Tribex.

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Don't ask me about studies CHICKEN DADDY...oops sorry. All of my knowledge comes from a combination of book research and personal experimentation and field studies. There is not alot of real studies available on pro hormone use, but they work very similar to steroids and have many of the same effects (albeit to a lesser degree). I am relying on my knowledge of anatomy/physiology/kinesiology here among other things.

Yes, but there are plenty of studies to which one can extrapolate such information. Specifically there should be studies that (i) show that PHs or AAS raise cortisol level post cycle if that is in fact true, (ii) that the supps you recommend at the doses you recommend effectively lower cortisol level.

If this is established than one can extrapolate that these supps at these doses MIGHT be an effective post cycle remedy. Other than "general knowledge" where are you getting this from if not studies?

Further, you are saying that you have seen a significant number of people who have used PHs and not used these supps post cycle and compared that to people that have used them in these doses? And further that you have been able to notice a difference to a siginificant degree?

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Assuming these supps work, and they do, again my recommendations on dosages come about the same way Patrick Arnolds info comes from...years of research, experimentation, and trial and error.

Partick always sites studies. Often he extrapolates from them, like in my example above, but he always has a source. Further he has studies conducted as well to determine if his extrapolations are appropo. You aren't really comparing where you get your knowledge from to where Patrick does?

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro These guys don't recommend this stuff because they don't sell it. They are businessmen FIRST.

First, one of them is actually a friend. Second, don't you think it is in their best interest to recommend ways to keep your gains? OF COURSE. That makes good business sense. If you don't keep your gains you won't keep buying there products. Logic.

If not, why to they recommend things like diet, training volume etc. Besides, for example, Par Deus, frequently recommends products he does not sell as excellent post cycle tools. Sorry, this logical point doesn't stand up.

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro Using my strategy you will not need to lower your training volume post cycle.

That seems kind of silly. When taking PHs or AAS you are supposed to increase your training volume. At the very least you should decrease back to where you were when going off. But for a few weeks it seems best to reduce volume even further.

In order for your statement to be true, since you have no evidence, you would have now had to see a significant number of people use PHs and use these supps post cycle and many reduce volume and many keep volume the same and you would have had enough people so that you can determine that decreasing volume produced no benefits. I have trouble believing that that is in fact true.

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro Tribex DOES raise testosterone levels. Tribulis raises LH levels which in turn signals the body to raise test levels.

The only way you can know this is by citing a study or personally have take blood readings before and after administration of enough people to conclude this.

GoPro, I am not saying that you are wrong, I am simply saying that you are making very bold statements ("this works", not "this should/might" work) and very specific statements (regarding products and doses) that you seem not to have any authority for. You see, as a lawyer, you can't say anything with credibility w/o having authority. So, since I have not seen these recommendations (expensive ones at that) I'd like to know the basis for them.

Sincerely,
TP

**gopro** · 01-24-2003, 08:04 AM

TP...thanks my friend. I now feel like I'm back at WBB. I am going to give a "broadstroke" answer to all of your queries as my time is somewhat limited.

All of the info I gave is the result of the following...

-personal experience...this includes very careful record taking and comparison AND bloodwork

-field studies...same as above but done with clients engaged in various sports

-research on supplements, vitamins/minerals, steroids, and how they affect the physiology in specific instances

-research on steroids and PHs like above

That is all that I can say. Hope its enough. Been at this a VERY long time and think I've earned my stripes.

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 08:26 AM

Just because you have "earned your stripes" doesn't mean we can't see them. The American society has not thrived because we just shut up and follow. You decided to make broad recommendations regarding post cycle remedies to the entire board. Your recommendations are not what I have read, at many other places in many other contexts. Your advice is revolutionary so to speak.

It may be that you are DEAD ON. That this will become tge gold standard to post cyle recovery. I want to know WHY? Is that so wrong? This is a serious and important issue. Again, this stuff is expensive. And it really IS NOT something that one can "figure out" by experimenting, absent tons and tons of evidence. So, if you cannot back this up WITH ANYTHING, than that is something I will factor into my analysis of whether I should follow these specific recommendations. And I think it is something that any members reading this planning a cycle should consider too.

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
TP...thanks my friend. I now feel like I'm back at WBB.
....
Been at this a VERY long time and think I've earned my stripes.

This is very silly GP. Very.

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro -personal experience...this includes very careful record taking and comparison AND bloodwork

I thought you never took AAS or PHs. Please clarify this, was I wrong?

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro research on supplements, vitamins/minerals, steroids, and how they affect the physiology in specific instances

-research on steroids and PHs like above

Ahah, now we are getting somewhere. Can you please share that research with us?

Thanks much.

**gopro** · 01-24-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Just because you have "earned your stripes" doesn't mean we can't see them. The American society has not thrived because we just shut up and follow. You decided to make broad recommendations regarding post cycle remedies to the entire board. Your recommendations are not what I have read, at many other places in many other contexts. Your advice is revolutionary so to speak.

It may be that you are DEAD ON. That this will become tge gold standard to post cyle recovery. I want to know WHY? Is that so wrong? This is a serious and important issue. Again, this stuff is expensive. And it really IS NOT something that one can "figure out" by experimenting, absent tons and tons of evidence. So, if you cannot back this up WITH ANYTHING, than that is something I will factor into my analysis of whether I should follow these specific recommendations. And I think it is something that any members reading this planning a cycle should consider too.

This is very silly GP. Very.

I thought you never took AAS or PHs. Please clarify this, was I wrong?

Ahah, now we are getting somewhere. Can you please share that research with us?

Thanks much.

Well TP...I don't think that saying I've earned my stripes is silly at all. In fact, I've given so much info out on this site that its crazy. I am rarely asked to site a study and am usually taken at my word. Why? I guess people trust me. I guess they try out my advice and see that it works and than ask for more.

I do not have the time to cite studies or sit here and look them up. Rarely do I keep anything on file unless I feel it is vital or something I can't memorize. At best I will take notes which I may refer to later. If I was selling a product ala Pat Arnold or Par Deus I would take more time citing studies as "proof." But you know what...most of the studies that are cited in this industry are A) crappy B) done by the companies themselves...therefore skewed C) are used improperly...in other words, ideas are extrapolated that favor use of a product, but may not be valid or the whole picture.

I guess you will just have to trust my knowledge, integrity, sincerity, experience, and desire to help others...or, don't listen to me. I am not paid to mod here and have VERY limited time to be here. I mod on 3 different sites and only do so because of my want to help people reach their goals. All 3 sites came to me to ask me if I would mod and didn't ask me to back up my knowledge with studies...the admins simply recognized what I know.

I am not saying you are wrong for asking for studies, but if you want them than go look and see if you can find something.

The reputation I have built has come through results and trust.

I don't want you and I to have a problem in any way, so everything I have said is meant with complete respect.

AND BY THE WAY...NO I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. YOU MISINTERPRETED WHAT I SAID.

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 09:01 AM

Nuff said.

**gopro** · 01-24-2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Nuff said.

Yes, and absolutely positively no hard feelings at all. I respect you and all of your thoguhts!

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Yes, and absolutely positively no hard feelings at all. I respect you and all of your thoguhts!

Fair enough. I am not upset in the slightest, though you think I am a moody SOB.

I certainly have asked your advice and opinions before. Its just that on a topic like this (as opposed to comparing one brand versus another, or on training method or style) I need more to base a decision on.

Hey, I rarely take Pat at his word, either.

Robboe · 01-24-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Assuming that they work where are you getting these doses from?

I'm guessing he 'extrapolated' them from that warm, dark place where he pulls most of his other 'beliefs' from.

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I'm guessing he 'extrapolated' them from that warm, dark place where he pulls most of his other 'beliefs' from.

ROTFLMAO!

**Prince** · 01-24-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I'm guessing he 'extrapolated' them from that warm, dark place where he pulls most of his other 'beliefs' from.

at least he draws his conclsions from his own real life professional experiences rather than from a paper, study or book like you do.

I think very highly of empirical evidence as long as it's from a reputable source, and I regard gopro as such.

Robboe · 01-24-2003, 11:08 AM

Not all of my stuff is from studies. But if i say something, you can bet that nine times out of ten i'll have the paperwork to back my ass up.

Or, if i have no actual scientific evidence for something i'm saying, i'll state that, and i'll make it clear that it is just a recommendation or a belief that the person may want to experiement with.

I'm not saying the real-life experiences have no place, but to come out and say stuff (in general, not just in this thread) that he has no proof of is just dumb.

And he seems to spend countless hours on these forums, but as soon as his integrity is questioned, he has "no time".

I've heard it all before.

I've been keeping quiet lately, but the guy seems to want to bring my name into almost every thread he posts in to bring me down.

**gopro** · 01-24-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Not all of my stuff is from studies. But if i say something, you can bet that nine times out of ten i'll have the paperwork to back my ass up.

Or, if i have no actual scientific evidence for something i'm saying, i'll state that, and i'll make it clear that it is just a recommendation or a belief that the person may want to experiement with.

I'm not saying the real-life experiences have no place, but to come out and say stuff (in general, not just in this thread) that he has no proof of is just dumb.

And he seems to spend countless hours on these forums, but as soon as his integrity is questioned, he has "no time".

I've heard it all before.

I've been keeping quiet lately, but the guy seems to want to bring my name into almost every thread he posts in to bring me down.

Oh dude...you have lost your sense of humor again! Tut, tut, tut...thats not like you. OOOps, gotta go...I've taken up yet another of my countless hours on here!

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
at least he draws his conclsions from his own real life professional experiences rather than from a paper, study or book like you do.

I think very highly of empirical evidence as long as it's from a reputable source, and I regard gopro as such.

Prince, as related to this thread, this is not true. He already stated that this is not from his own experience. He did state that his knowledge is from books, papers, etc.

He might have stated that he has heard of the benefits from customers, but I asked several times if he has had the opportunity to compare clients who used the stuff at these doses and who didn't to see if it helped post cycle recovery. He made specific recommendations that w/o having enough people do it both ways, he can't know, unless extrapolated from a study, or seen used in both way by manyh different people.

So I am left to believe that it is just from his general knowledge and reading, but he can't remember where he read it or doesn't have the time to find it.

Twin Peak · 01-24-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
but the guy seems to want to bring my name into almost every thread he posts in to bring me down.

Hey fvcker, are you saying that by GP comparing me to you, he is bringing you down! That hurts!

**gopro** · 01-24-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Prince, as related to this thread, this is not true. He already stated that this is not from his own experience. He did state that his knowledge is from books, papers, etc.

He might have stated that he has heard of the benefits from customers, but I asked several times if he has had the opportunity to compare clients who used the stuff at these doses and who didn't to see if it helped post cycle recovery. He made specific recommendations that w/o having enough people do it both ways, he can't know, unless extrapolated from a study, or seen used in both way by manyh different people.

So I am left to believe that it is just from his general knowledge and reading, but he can't remember where he read it or doesn't have the time to find it.

Hey TP...just want to clear something up. First, I read so many books, articles, and journals that its impossible to remember which info came from what source. The important thing is that I memorize the information!! And I do.

Also, I HAVE tried tons of different combinations of pro hormones...dosages, cycle lengths, training strategies, and post cycle protocols with my serious clients and HAVE compared the results.

The original intention of my post was to make people aware of cortisol. This came about because I noticed that gains from the cycles...both steroids and PHs...were kept to a greater degree when this issue was addressed along with E/T ratios.

All I was doing was passing it along to help everyone!

Robboe · 01-24-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Oh dude...you have lost your sense of humor again! Tut, tut, tut...thats not like you. OOOps, gotta go...I've taken up yet another of my countless hours on here!

No, no Eric, my sense of humour is very much intact.

But it really helps if you a) post something that is actually funny, b) is not a "joke" that has been carried over from many months previously and c) other people are actually in on the "joke".

I'll quite happily be the butt (yes, i'm a 'butt' - how hilarious) of your jibes and jokes, but for Christ's sake man, think up something humorous and original at least.

You're about as funny as syphillis.

Cue all the fantastic jokes regarding me knowing how funny syphillis actually is...

01-22-2003, 08:44 AM	#1
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,504	Post cycle: Prohormones! There is alot of talk about prohormones. They may be even more popular than creatine right now. Alot of threads talk about what to do post-cycle in order to maintain gains. Most of the talk involves restoring the natural test/estrogen ratios, as it should. However, there is another thing that must be thought about when coming off PHs...the cortisol/test ratio. Prohormones like steroids are inherently anti-catabolic as well as anabolic. This is why pro bodybuilders will use drugs like clen and Cytadren post cycle, along with anti-estrogens and test raisers...clen and Cytadren are anti-catabolics. Now, in the "natural" BBing world we must find supplements that lower cortisol in order to keep your gains post PH cycle. 3 of the best are vitamin C, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine. Use these along with your test boosters/estrogen blockers and you will have a complete strategy for keeping your PH gains. I suggest 3 g of vit C per day, 1500 mg of ALC per day, and 800 mg PS per day for 4 weeks after your cycle. Add this to some Tribex and 6-OXO and you are "golden!"
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

01-23-2003, 07:43 AM	#2
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,269	great post!
	www.sbmuscle.com

01-24-2003, 08:04 AM	#9
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,504	TP...thanks my friend. I now feel like I'm back at WBB. I am going to give a "broadstroke" answer to all of your queries as my time is somewhat limited. All of the info I gave is the result of the following... -personal experience...this includes very careful record taking and comparison AND bloodwork -field studies...same as above but done with clients engaged in various sports -research on supplements, vitamins/minerals, steroids, and how they affect the physiology in specific instances -research on steroids and PHs like above That is all that I can say. Hope its enough. Been at this a VERY long time and think I've earned my stripes.
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

01-24-2003, 09:01 AM	#12
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	Nuff said.
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

01-24-2003, 11:08 AM	#18
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Not all of my stuff is from studies. But if i say something, you can bet that nine times out of ten i'll have the paperwork to back my ass up. Or, if i have no actual scientific evidence for something i'm saying, i'll state that, and i'll make it clear that it is just a recommendation or a belief that the person may want to experiement with. I'm not saying the real-life experiences have no place, but to come out and say stuff (in general, not just in this thread) that he has no proof of is just dumb. And he seems to spend countless hours on these forums, but as soon as his integrity is questioned, he has "no time". I've heard it all before. I've been keeping quiet lately, but the guy seems to want to bring my name into almost every thread he posts in to bring me down.
	Being held down by The Man

01-23-2003, 07:48 AM	#3
Vale Tudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 357	GP I know how much Tribex to use cycling off, but what about the OXO, like as far as amounts and such. Also where can I get 6-oxo?

01-23-2003, 10:03 AM	#5
Vale Tudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 357	thanks bro, hey could you take a look at my other thread "starting my new cycle, and tell me what you think? thanks bro