PH - Natural or Not?

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 10:53 AM

I am just curious what everyone thinks. Yes I know that people get "less" in the way of results with PH use than "real" steroids, but I still think if you are directly playing with hormone levels then your not "natural."

Firestorm brought up coffee and things like that, with coffee being so widely used I don't see that a natural BB organization could get that banned without some kind of serious fight

So, I'm just curious what the opinions are.

1) PH is still legal for most of us
2) Not as "good" as the real thing

But I dont believe #1 or #2 qualify it as "oh well then its natural."

Doh, should have thought about a "semi-natural", hate to reset the votes this late in the game though although it should have been up there who have an "in the middle" view on PH use. It probably didn't occur to me because I see this as night and day, although I can of course understand the "inbetweener" but I think ultimately that is sort of fibbing

**Robboe** · 06-17-2003, 11:05 AM

Method of administration is really the deciding factor IMO.

If you took an oral PH (or anabolic steroid in the case of 1-test), not many will really bat and eye lid or give it much substance.

If you apply an oral PH transdermally, most will just think you're weird.

If you inject a steroid, most will consider you anything ranging from a "gear head" to a "criminal" to a "cheat".

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 11:17 AM

Yep, people fear the needle, and thusly if you use one you are deranged.

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 12:10 PM

I think natural is a term that should be done away with.

Anytime you take any substance to supraphysiolocial levels through supplementation, that is not "natural."

So, creatine use is no more "natural" than PHs.

That said, PHs and especially 1-test, are AAS.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 12:24 PM

I can agree on some level, but creatine does not play with hormone levels like the PHs do. I'm glad to see that you agree at least with that

I honestly dont understand how someone can't agree, it may not be "the same thing" but it still affects natural hormone levels.

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 12:31 PM

Absolutely. I consider 1-test AAS, as stated. I also believe it is equally potent as many illicit steroids, it is just limited by its modality.

I don't think PHs are natural. I just don't agree with your chopping up natural to be a hormonal thing. Why is that? "Natural" to me is simply, whether or not you have taken things beyond what nature provided.

So, I am suggesting that essentially, save for the supplement, it is impossible to obtain high levels of creatine as you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of red meat each and everyday.

Protein supplementation would not qualify since you can eat a protein dense diet "naturally."

My point is, essentially, any attempt to define "natural" is simply impossible.

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 12:35 PM

I think it is NOT natural, orally or transdermally! You still get an advantage, regardless if they are as strong or not.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 12:39 PM

This is not BTW a huge pet peeve of mine or anything, I think the answer is clear as day

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
This is not BTW a huge pet peeve of mine or anything, I think the answer is clear as day

Then you have not made "the answer" clear. Do tell?

DG, I am sorry, but that was a piss-poor response. Advantage over what? Since when is "having an advantage" the definition of not natural? By that definition, protein is not natural, hell, good genes or a better training program, or a high protein diet isn't natural.

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
This is not BTW a huge pet peeve of mine or anything, I think the answer is clear as day

BTW, I am not trying to slide into the natural category. I don't care whether anyone else thinks I am natural or not.

I am legal, which is what matters to me.

If I decide to compete, I will compete in a show that does not ban PHs. There are "natural" shows that do not ban them.

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Twin Peak

DG, I am sorry, but that was a piss-poor response. Advantage over what? Since when is "having an advantage" the definition of not natural?

Since I just said it!!!!!!!! No, what I meant was you having extra test to work with from the PH's that you would not otherwise have! That is the advantage.

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Twin Peak

If I decide to compete, I will compete in a show that does not ban PHs. There are "natural" shows that do not ban them.

If you do that, then you will also be competing against roids users and it won't even be fair. Even in natural shows here, you have people on roids, and you can spot them a mile away because they are twice as big and thick. Thy know they won't spend the money to test.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I don't think PHs are natural. I just don't agree with your chopping up natural to be a hormonal thing. Why is that? "Natural" to me is simply, whether or not you have taken things beyond what nature provided.

I can agree with that, my main issue is that PH users want to think of themselves as somehow different than steroid users. To me the only real difference is, hardly anyone is going to be injecting 1-Test. To be truly natural in this day and age is nearly impossible, unless you live on a farm and grow your own stuff from the grass all the way to raising your own cattle/lambs etc, but then we could get into what kind of fertilizer/pesticices yada yada.

So in short, I just dont understand how PH users think of themselves as somehow better or different than gear users, one is legal one isn't, and thats the main difference I see as well as administration.

So, I am suggesting that essentially, save for the supplement, it is impossible to obtain high levels of creatine as you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of red meat each and everyday.

Like you, I seriously wonder if I respond to creatine at all.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Twin Peak
BTW, I am not trying to slide into the natural category. I don't care whether anyone else thinks I am natural or not.

I dont know if Prince uses PH or not, but I like his "semi-natural" stance.

I am legal, which is what matters to me.

No argument there, who wants to be a felon - not many of us. I think the laws are stupid and often made by uneducated individuals, but when the day is over if a gear user gets caught its going to affect them to some degree.

Originally posted by dg806
Since I just said it!!!!!!!! No, what I meant was you having extra test to work with from the PH's that you would not otherwise have! That is the advantage.

Is the advantage administration based? I have heard of good results from those who have converted 1-Test to an injectable.

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
I dont know if Prince uses PH or not, but I like his "semi-natural" stance.

Is the advantage administration based? I have heard of good results from those who have converted 1-Test to an injectable.

Prince did order several bottles of Avant Gel,
And from what I hear, injecting 1-test is God-awful painful. I think anyone in their right might is crazy to inject it! The theory behind it is good, only having to inject twice a week, but it just isn't there yet!

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 01:41 PM

I think some guys have tried injecting 4/ad with some success! But they say it compares to transdermal use in gains. But you still only inject twice a week vs. applying twice a day!

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 01:46 PM

Yep, same thing I heard, painfull injections. Some of that though could be the conversion process, then again prop and other things are painfull as well. Some people litterally use coffee filters to filter thier stuff

**Eggs** · 06-17-2003, 01:55 PM

I think that taking any supplement is truly not natural. Someone may say that lifting weights, etc is not... but I dont think that you can categorize weight lifting and supplementation together.

I mean, it seems that many people think that the category of natural falls into some grey area between taking supplements and taking steroids. So then what is the difference between a injectable steroid user and a oral steroid user? What happens if someone responds better to a supplement than another person... does the person who responds better become less natural?

I dont know, I just think that trying to define natural as anything other than using/not using supplements is a moot point.

I've used PH, and I dont consider myself natural. But why would I care, I dont really need to prove anything to myself for why people are bigger than I am.

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 02:00 PM

Mudge, I agree completely. And your "beef" is well taken, save for the difference in legality.

My beef is on the opposite side of the coin -- when gear users make unfounded and derogatory comments on those who use PHs as if it is stupid. I think its a defense mechanism personally.

Personally, I think that steroids should not be illegal. But since they are, and my career depends on me abidding by the law, I will refrain. Though the illegality gives me a good excuse since I hate needles.

And Prince's title is a direct result of this very same discussion some time ago.

**ZECH** · 06-17-2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
Yep, same thing I heard, painfull injections. Some of that though could be the conversion process, then again prop and other things are painfull as well. Some people litterally use coffee filters to filter thier stuff

1-test has a burning sensation to it! I assume the test cyp does too! It is actually the 1-test that is burning on top of the normal pain. The new burn free 1-test is not suitable for injection as I understand. Maybe TP can verify all this.

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 02:25 PM

I have not looked into the injectible aspect of it, so I will refrain from posting that which I do not know about.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by dg806
1-test has a burning sensation to it! I assume the test cyp does too!

Not the "real" Cypionate, although the new OTC stuff I dont know

I wonder what the law has to say, if anything, about conversion to an injectable?

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Eggs
I think that taking any supplement is truly not natural. Someone may say that lifting weights, etc is not... but I dont think that you can categorize weight lifting and supplementation together.

True, good points. I suppose natural could be cut down to hunting and gathering, so technically yes you are correct I'd say. Most of us, I think though, take natural to mean hormonally speaking, although maybe it is just me and a handfull of others. This is backed somewhat though by "natural" BB organizations, its not homeless men competing up there, its a hormonal argument

**Twin Peak** · 06-17-2003, 04:25 PM

Then why do some "natural" organizations allow PHs? And why are some non-hormonal agents banned (like Clen and T3)?

You see, it breaks down.

As to the law question, it all comes down to the "intended use" of the product. Modality is regulated as well. If its intended use was as an injectible, it would no longer be classified as a "dietary supplement" but rather a "New Drug", and regulated as such.

**Mudge** · 06-17-2003, 05:16 PM

Didn't know that any did offhand, only know that GP said his doesn't allow it. Since its still OTC though I could see it being accepted.

**MeanCuts** · 06-19-2003, 06:04 AM

I think anyone who supplements with anything to raise test to above normal levels or takes real GH is not natural .JMO

**Twin Peak** · 06-19-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by MeanCuts
I think anyone who supplements with anything to raise test to above normal levels or takes real GH is not natural .JMO

Define normal. Above an individuals baseline, or above the normal range for adult males?

**MeanCuts** · 06-19-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Define normal. Above an individuals baseline, or above the normal range for adult males?

I guess taking testosterone to bring an individual baseline back up to normal range(for his age) would still be natural since he's in a unatural state to begin with,but I think taking anabolics of any kind is quit different.

**Mudge** · 06-19-2003, 02:04 PM

What exactly is normal though, if someones natural test levels are low and its not dietary related, then that is "natural" for them.

**MeanCuts** · 06-19-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
What exactly is normal though, if someones natural test levels are low and its not dietary related, then that is "natural" for them.

If a child is dying when their born then don't save it because it's natural for the he/she?
If a person suffers from low test levels then it's a medical condition like any other and should be treated the best way possible.

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