Understanding The Ingredients in most Thermogenics

BabsieGirl · 12-05-2003, 11:40 AM

OK, the easiest thing to do here is to describe what each ingredient does. This will make the best combination obvious.

Norephedrine – Isomer of ephedrine. It is a mirror copy of the ephedrine molecule and occurs naturally in all ephedra-based products. It is less effective than ephedrine as a sympathomimetic.

MaHuang – This is another name for ephedra. It is the whole herb containing many ephedra alkoloids including ephedrine, norephedrine (phenyproponalanine), psuedoephedrine, etc.

Synephrine – Synephrine is an A1 agonist. A1 agonism increases leptin sensitivity, and can enhance beta adrenergic thermogensis.

Caffeine – Caffeine is a methyxanthine. It acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor and as an adenosine inhibitor. All by itself it will increase norepinephrine as well as epinephrine levels and thus sympathetic activity and lipolysis. It also has potent effects on the sodium/potassium pump and intracellular calcium ion kinetics, making it a very useful ergogentic aid.

Yohimbine – Yohimbe acts as a specific alpha-2 adrenergic antagonist. As such, it prevents the "presynaptic" negative feeback signal from noradrenaline on the nerve terminal that releases it. There is some question as to its "post synaptic" effects on fat cells. This might explain its lackluster performance as a lower body fat reducer.

Green Tea – Green tea contains caffeine and other xanthines similar to caffeine. Because of this it elicits may of the same effects as caffeine. Green tea is also unique in that it contains many tea catechins that have been shown to posses anti-cancer properties.

Guggulsterones – Contrary to popular belief, guggulsterones do not increase thyroid gland activity. Research has shown that gugguls act as antioxidants, able to inhibit lipid peroxidation in the liver. This antiperoxidaitive property helps to maintain the cell memebranes in the liver. Membrane integrity directly effects the conversion of T4 to T3. So, gugguls increase T3 levels by optimizing the conversion of inactive T4 into the active T3 in the liver.

Phosphates – Phosphates have been shown to prevent the reduction in thyroid levels with caloric restriction. It isn’t clear how phosphates accomplish this.

Forskohlii – Forshohlii inceases intracellular cAMP levels. Increased cAMP levels are necessary for an increase in lipolysis. Forskohlii is used in laboratory setting as an "in-vitro" agent. It has not been used in-vivo (i.e. with live animals or people). No body can really say whether it is an effective fat loss agent when taken orally until it can be shown to work in controlled experiments.

Tyrosine – Tyrosine is an amino acid. It is a substrate for the production of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. Some research exists showing supplemental tyrosine may increase the effectiveness of sympathomimetics such as ephedrine hydrochloride.

Quercetin – Quercitin is a flavonoid with little or no effect on lipolysis. It is recommended however if you are at risk of breast cancer.

Naringin – Naringin, found in grapefruit juice, acts by selective post-translational down regulation of cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP3A4) expression in the intestinal wall. Several components of grapefruit juice, including naringin, naringenin, limonin and obacunone, also showed inhibitory effects in human microsomes. Hydrophobic components other than flavonoids, probably coumarin derivatives, are responsible for the effects of grapefruit juice on drug metabolism.

D-pinitol – D-pinitol is an insulin agonist. It would have no discernable effect on fat loss.

Colosolic Acid (Banaba) – Corosolic acid, like d-pinitol, is an insulin agonist and should have no discernable effect on fat loss.

Lipoic acid – Lipoic acid is an antioxidant. In high doses it has been shown to enhance insulin sensitivity. This would have no discernable effects on fat loss in normal individuals.

It should be clear from the above information that ephedrine (ephedrine HCl) combined with caffeine in a ratio of 1:10 respectively, would be the best thermogenic combination. In fact, there is ample research demonstrating the effectiveness of this combination for both short term and long term weight loss. The addition of insulin sensitizers as "thermogenics" is simply an industry trend started by individuals with a reduced understanding of human physiology and nutritional science.

One final note, any products containing norephedrine are now off the shelves or soon will be so enquiring about them is almost a mute point. Keep in mind that because norephedrine and ephedrine occur naturally together in all ephedra based herbal products you can’t remove one without removing the other. It could very well be that ephedra is on its way out…

By: Bryan Haycock MSc., CSCS

I edited this to appease Dante

Dante B. · 12-05-2003, 03:52 PM

Fix the segment on synephrine.

EGCG from green tea also inhibits COMT, which is one (minor) negative feedback mechanism for NE induced thermogenesis.

In humans, caffeine isn't likely to affect phosphodiesterase with typical, safe dosages.

With YHCL, the problem really isn't one of postsynaptic A2 receptors, but one of dose limitations. By time you reach an effective oral dose, the side-effects may be incredibly uncomfortable, if not dangerous (especially when combined with E/C).

Quercetin may act (like EGCG) as a COMT inhibitor.

BabsieGirl · 12-05-2003, 03:56 PM

Dante B.........Thanks for noticing.

BabsieGirl · 12-05-2003, 04:15 PM

Edited.

do I now have your seal of approval?

HoldDaMayo · 12-05-2003, 04:46 PM

damn Babs, You're so smart... thanks for bringing some more knowledge to the table...

BabsieGirl · 12-05-2003, 04:50 PM

Thanks Hold! Where the heck have you been partner?

HoldDaMayo · 12-05-2003, 05:11 PM

St Louis

It's cold here and the gym at my hotel sux... my diet has been slacked and I won't be home till friday of next week...

I will need your help when i get back home... I'm thinking about doing a nice 2-3 week cut when i get home...

I also want to see if I can make my own E\C stack... some recommedations as for dosage for a 5'11" 185 pound man with already one ECA stack cycle under his belt would be very helpful...

Also, I have a question related to this topic... what is ephedra HCL?

HoldDaMayo · 12-05-2003, 09:47 PM

Bump on the Ephedra HCL question...

Dante B. · 12-06-2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabsieGirl
seal

I beat mine to death.

Thanks for reminding me.

BabsieGirl · 12-06-2003, 08:57 PM

I didn't know you did that!

HoldDaMayo · 12-06-2003, 09:19 PM

babs did you notice this got copied and pasted on the bodybuilding.com forums? Everyone loved it and was like, "wow this is the greatest thing since sliced bread"

It did have your name on it though, I don't know if you know Pogue from those boards, but he was the one to copy and paste it...

BabsieGirl · 12-07-2003, 04:15 PM

Thanks Hold, yeah I know. He asked for permission. Glad people are enjoying as my intentions are to help people. I love helping people. Makes ya feel good.

Did you say anything in that forum in regards to the thread?

HoldDaMayo · 12-07-2003, 05:08 PM

nah, I was going to talk some smack about you, then i decided I would try and hold my tongue for once...

BabsieGirl · 12-07-2003, 05:44 PM

Well....thanks for holding back.....

See ya tomorrow.

Late.
Krys

12-05-2003, 11:40 AM	#1
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Understanding The Ingredients in most Thermogenics OK, the easiest thing to do here is to describe what each ingredient does. This will make the best combination obvious. Norephedrine – Isomer of ephedrine. It is a mirror copy of the ephedrine molecule and occurs naturally in all ephedra-based products. It is less effective than ephedrine as a sympathomimetic. MaHuang – This is another name for ephedra. It is the whole herb containing many ephedra alkoloids including ephedrine, norephedrine (phenyproponalanine), psuedoephedrine, etc. Synephrine – Synephrine is an A1 agonist. A1 agonism increases leptin sensitivity, and can enhance beta adrenergic thermogensis. Caffeine – Caffeine is a methyxanthine. It acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor and as an adenosine inhibitor. All by itself it will increase norepinephrine as well as epinephrine levels and thus sympathetic activity and lipolysis. It also has potent effects on the sodium/potassium pump and intracellular calcium ion kinetics, making it a very useful ergogentic aid. Yohimbine – Yohimbe acts as a specific alpha-2 adrenergic antagonist. As such, it prevents the "presynaptic" negative feeback signal from noradrenaline on the nerve terminal that releases it. There is some question as to its "post synaptic" effects on fat cells. This might explain its lackluster performance as a lower body fat reducer. Green Tea – Green tea contains caffeine and other xanthines similar to caffeine. Because of this it elicits may of the same effects as caffeine. Green tea is also unique in that it contains many tea catechins that have been shown to posses anti-cancer properties. Guggulsterones – Contrary to popular belief, guggulsterones do not increase thyroid gland activity. Research has shown that gugguls act as antioxidants, able to inhibit lipid peroxidation in the liver. This antiperoxidaitive property helps to maintain the cell memebranes in the liver. Membrane integrity directly effects the conversion of T4 to T3. So, gugguls increase T3 levels by optimizing the conversion of inactive T4 into the active T3 in the liver. Phosphates – Phosphates have been shown to prevent the reduction in thyroid levels with caloric restriction. It isn’t clear how phosphates accomplish this. Forskohlii – Forshohlii inceases intracellular cAMP levels. Increased cAMP levels are necessary for an increase in lipolysis. Forskohlii is used in laboratory setting as an "in-vitro" agent. It has not been used in-vivo (i.e. with live animals or people). No body can really say whether it is an effective fat loss agent when taken orally until it can be shown to work in controlled experiments. Tyrosine – Tyrosine is an amino acid. It is a substrate for the production of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. Some research exists showing supplemental tyrosine may increase the effectiveness of sympathomimetics such as ephedrine hydrochloride. Quercetin – Quercitin is a flavonoid with little or no effect on lipolysis. It is recommended however if you are at risk of breast cancer. Naringin – Naringin, found in grapefruit juice, acts by selective post-translational down regulation of cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP3A4) expression in the intestinal wall. Several components of grapefruit juice, including naringin, naringenin, limonin and obacunone, also showed inhibitory effects in human microsomes. Hydrophobic components other than flavonoids, probably coumarin derivatives, are responsible for the effects of grapefruit juice on drug metabolism. D-pinitol – D-pinitol is an insulin agonist. It would have no discernable effect on fat loss. Colosolic Acid (Banaba) – Corosolic acid, like d-pinitol, is an insulin agonist and should have no discernable effect on fat loss. Lipoic acid – Lipoic acid is an antioxidant. In high doses it has been shown to enhance insulin sensitivity. This would have no discernable effects on fat loss in normal individuals. It should be clear from the above information that ephedrine (ephedrine HCl) combined with caffeine in a ratio of 1:10 respectively, would be the best thermogenic combination. In fact, there is ample research demonstrating the effectiveness of this combination for both short term and long term weight loss. The addition of insulin sensitizers as "thermogenics" is simply an industry trend started by individuals with a reduced understanding of human physiology and nutritional science. One final note, any products containing norephedrine are now off the shelves or soon will be so enquiring about them is almost a mute point. Keep in mind that because norephedrine and ephedrine occur naturally together in all ephedra based herbal products you can’t remove one without removing the other. It could very well be that ephedra is on its way out… By: Bryan Haycock MSc., CSCS I edited this to appease Dante Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS Last edited by BabsieGirl : 12-11-2003 at 07:43 PM.

12-05-2003, 03:52 PM	#2
Dante B. Non Compost Mentis Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 598 Photos: 8	Fix the segment on synephrine. EGCG from green tea also inhibits COMT, which is one (minor) negative feedback mechanism for NE induced thermogenesis. In humans, caffeine isn't likely to affect phosphodiesterase with typical, safe dosages. With YHCL, the problem really isn't one of postsynaptic A2 receptors, but one of dose limitations. By time you reach an effective oral dose, the side-effects may be incredibly uncomfortable, if not dangerous (especially when combined with E/C). Quercetin may act (like EGCG) as a COMT inhibitor. Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity. Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

12-05-2003, 03:56 PM	#3
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Dante B.........Thanks for noticing. Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-05-2003, 04:15 PM	#4
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Edited. do I now have your seal of approval? Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-05-2003, 04:46 PM	#5
HoldDaMayo Just call me Mayo Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oceanside, CA Posts: 1,917 Photos: 4	damn Babs, You're so smart... thanks for bringing some more knowledge to the table... Are you kidding me????

12-05-2003, 04:50 PM	#6
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Thanks Hold! Where the heck have you been partner? Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-05-2003, 05:11 PM	#7
HoldDaMayo Just call me Mayo Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oceanside, CA Posts: 1,917 Photos: 4	St Louis It's cold here and the gym at my hotel sux... my diet has been slacked and I won't be home till friday of next week... I will need your help when i get back home... I'm thinking about doing a nice 2-3 week cut when i get home... I also want to see if I can make my own E\C stack... some recommedations as for dosage for a 5'11" 185 pound man with already one ECA stack cycle under his belt would be very helpful... Also, I have a question related to this topic... what is ephedra HCL? Are you kidding me????

12-05-2003, 09:47 PM	#8
HoldDaMayo Just call me Mayo Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oceanside, CA Posts: 1,917 Photos: 4	Bump on the Ephedra HCL question... Are you kidding me????

12-06-2003, 08:57 PM	#10
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	I didn't know you did that! Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-06-2003, 09:19 PM	#11
HoldDaMayo Just call me Mayo Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oceanside, CA Posts: 1,917 Photos: 4	babs did you notice this got copied and pasted on the bodybuilding.com forums? Everyone loved it and was like, "wow this is the greatest thing since sliced bread" It did have your name on it though, I don't know if you know Pogue from those boards, but he was the one to copy and paste it... Are you kidding me????

12-07-2003, 04:15 PM	#12
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Thanks Hold, yeah I know. He asked for permission. Glad people are enjoying as my intentions are to help people. I love helping people. Makes ya feel good. Did you say anything in that forum in regards to the thread? Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-07-2003, 05:08 PM	#13
HoldDaMayo Just call me Mayo Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oceanside, CA Posts: 1,917 Photos: 4	nah, I was going to talk some smack about you, then i decided I would try and hold my tongue for once... Are you kidding me????

12-07-2003, 05:44 PM	#14
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Well....thanks for holding back..... See ya tomorrow. Late. Krys Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

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