When do anabolics become an rational option?

Monolith · 12-23-2003, 02:18 PM

When is a person "ready" for something like M1T... or any steroid for that matter?

I feel like i'm progressing decently without using any anabolics, but it seems like everyone on the boards and a whole lot of people at my gym are popping them like candy.

**dg806** · 12-23-2003, 03:06 PM

Usually, you would want at LEAST several solid years of training. If you are still making decent gains, I would wait. Lots of factors are involved including age. Start slowly and progress slowly with PH's for best results.

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 03:20 PM

If you are pleased with your gains now, then I would probably hold off. For people not pleased with thier natural gains, then it becomes a "I want it" situation.

However I think everyone pretty much assumes that we have around 6 months before this stuff is illegal.

BabyArnold · 12-23-2003, 03:51 PM

Personally I think that if you are under 25 you are already producing the same amount of test as some bodybuilders shoot in the ass. Or at least close to it. Depending on your body and what you want, you should wait until your system slows like after 25. If you use your own bodies supply to it's max and then you stop making gains then you can start adding to it. But I don't think that it works to it's potential unless your body is already maxed out naturally. Plus your muscles need to be used to being pounded day in and day out before you use something that is going to jump your squat from 200 to 500. There are lots of muscles that need to be worked before you do this.

BabyArnold · 12-23-2003, 03:53 PM

Am I right Mudge????????? You're alright Mudge! I don't like people too much, but you seem intelligent enough for me to get along with.

Monolith · 12-23-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
If you are pleased with your gains now, then I would probably hold off. For people not pleased with thier natural gains, then it becomes a "I want it" situation.

However I think everyone pretty much assumes that we have around 6 months before this stuff is illegal.

The gains are coming, yes... but not as fast as those around me. Is there a reason that several years of serious training and an eventual plateau be the reason for moving to anabolics (or at least the recommended reason)?

I've always thought that there werent any "magic pills" that could do what dedication couldnt, but i really havent read of any down sides to anabolics used properly.

All that combined with what appears to be an imminent banning of "legal steroids", makes me think maybe i should give them a try sooner than later.

BabyArnold · 12-23-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
The gains are coming, yes... but not as fast as those around me. Is there a reason that several years of serious training and an eventual plateau be the reason for moving to anabolics (or at least the recommended reason)?

I've always thought that there werent any "magic pills" that could do what dedication couldnt, but i really havent read of any down sides to anabolics used properly.

All that combined with what appears to be an imminent banning of "legal steroids", makes me think maybe i should give them a try sooner than later.

Genetics are a Bitch!!!

BabyArnold · 12-23-2003, 04:08 PM

I know guys at the gym that are geared up and have been for years and they are wasting their time!!! They look like nothing! And I also know guys that don't ever work out and are damn huge!!

Monolith · 12-23-2003, 04:13 PM

MeatheadSam · 12-23-2003, 04:38 PM

It is a personal matter but I do not advocate them and have never used them. I did have plenty of opportunity when I was in Europe in the Military back in the 80's. The other guys were getting them off base and using them.

But if you plan to compete then in BB you almost have to take something. Find a medical professional to keep you in line and "safe". Know what you are using and how to use it safely. Like any drug a steriod has dosage limits that need to be adhered to.

BabyArnold · 12-23-2003, 04:43 PM

Meat! You an Army Dog?????

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabyArnold
Personally I think that if you are under 25 you are already producing the same amount of test as some bodybuilders shoot in the ass.

If we are talking about people beyond 1000ng then that is a pretty beefy test level, but realistically gear users are still multiple times above anything resembling normal.

Estimated average is about 10-30mg worth of test a day, and as we both know gear users shoot much more

100mg a week or every second week is considered enough for replacement therapy.

Quote:

Originally posted by BabyArnold
Am I right Mudge????????? You're alright Mudge! I don't like people too much, but you seem intelligent enough for me to get along with.

I have half a brain, if its pumping out 10% capacity I'm happy

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
The gains are coming, yes... but not as fast as those around me. Is there a reason that several years of serious training and an eventual plateau be the reason for moving to anabolics (or at least the recommended reason)?

We could probably say generically that after 6 months of training things are going to slow down for the average person. Some people have embarrasingly good genetics, some dont, and some are in between. I chose to use something to get me beyond my natural levels, after some reading to convince myself it was either OK to do or something that would kill me, I decided things looked safe and I dont regret the decision.

Still though, I would not push this on anyone, and if someone is happy with where they are then let them be happy. If someone is scared crapless of even Creatine, then let them be scared, if they choose to educate themselves on the topic they will see.

prolangtum · 12-23-2003, 06:35 PM

Honestly, there never is solid rationale for using androgens. Unless you support yourself by your body appearance (model, pro BBer, etc) there is never a reason besides narcissitic reason. It is not healthy no matter what precautions you take, to use PH or AAS, to be frank. But do I use them? Yes. I had an excuse before, I was a stripper from 18-23. Being in shape and looking good was my job. Now, I work at a desk on a computer most of the time but I still do use them. Will I stop any time soon? Probaly not. A choice you make, and have to live with it.

MeatheadSam · 12-23-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabyArnold
Meat! You an Army Dog?????

82nd Airborne from 85-89. 3/325th Infantry Regiment. I was a radio totin mo fo with an M16/M203. Short stint but it was a blast. How about you?

Monolith · 12-23-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
We could probably say generically that after 6 months of training things are going to slow down for the average person. Some people have embarrasingly good genetics, some dont, and some are in between. I chose to use something to get me beyond my natural levels, after some reading to convince myself it was either OK to do or something that would kill me, I decided things looked safe and I dont regret the decision.

Still though, I would not push this on anyone, and if someone is happy with where they are then let them be happy. If someone is scared crapless of even Creatine, then let them be scared, if they choose to educate themselves on the topic they will see.

I suppose what i'm getting at is this:

Are there any detrimental side effects to anabolics if they're taken intelligently?

Also, could someone link me to a general overview of steroids? How they work, doses, the various kinds, etc?

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
Are there any detrimental side effects to anabolics if they're taken intelligently?

IMO no, but what is intelligent... someone can be intelligent and not get blood tests, and find out that thier cholesterol has been out of whack, and after years of using this could be detrimental to ones health. Blood pressure and cholesterol are things that many people do not pay attention to.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...threadid=24254 (Thesis on steroid use)

Monolith · 12-23-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
IMO no, but what is intelligent... someone can be intelligent and not get blood tests, and find out that thier cholesterol has been out of whack, and after years of using this could be detrimental to ones health. Blood pressure and cholesterol are things that many people do not pay attention to.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...threadid=24254 (Thesis on steroid use)

So, in other words... there are no side effects if you remain extremely vigilant; i.e. there are more variables you need to keep track of when on anabolics to keep yourself healthy.

That link is great by the way, im printing it out now. Thanks. This thread has been pretty damn informative.

Power Rabbit · 12-23-2003, 08:45 PM

I dont look at other people and judge myself by how fast they are gaining compared to me. As long as my gains are what I want em to be, Im happy. And when they stop being what I want em to be I give myself a little boost. When you feel that your gains aint like you want em to be, maby its time for a little boost.

And while you should be vigilent about doing things right( RESEARCH!!!!), there is no way to tell whether there will be side effects or not. It does make you alot less likely to be boned by those effects though.

MeatheadSam · 12-23-2003, 09:07 PM

It is considered in the medical community that Arnolds heart problem and subsequent surgery was due to steroid use.

**Mudge** · 12-24-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
So, in other words... there are no side effects if you remain extremely vigilant; i.e. there are more variables you need to keep track of when on anabolics to keep yourself healthy.

Well sure there are side effects, in terms of things changing in the body, but yes they are controllable and will not kill you if you are not stupid.

Yes you have to take breaks if you plan to have kids. This is the first set of side effects, replacing the bodies natural hormones causing shut down of your own.

Hair loss, if you are genetically predispositioned to it, you have some reading to do. I can run whatever I want and not lose anything, so I know little of it.

**Mudge** · 12-24-2003, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeatheadSam
It is considered in the medical community that Arnolds heart problem and subsequent surgery was due to steroid use.

So far as we believe from legend, he was nuts as far as pill popping. Yet those still close to him claim he used 2 dbol a week, for 4-6 weeks pre-competition only, which I think frankly is a load of crap.

Other sources claim he would take a handfull before his workout, wash it down with a beer and say "now we are ready to workout." Frankly with Arnolds attitude being what it is, I believe this much more so than 10mg of dbol a week.

When you play doctor with your own body, it would be advised to know what you are doing. Dont just ask people hey what do I run and for how long, ask the questions but I would suggest already having some kind of background knowlege from your own studies on it.

There are occasional examples, like the recent post of "hey guys what did I take?"

That is irresponsible and not even worth laughing at. I would not put something in my body if I didn't know something about it. Anyhow, I would suggest reading up, and coming to your own conclusions as to wether you feel you want to try something or not. Generally you start out slow, with one or two things only, several reasons for this.

Anyhow, happy reading. If you want some profile pages PM me and I can send you a couple links.

Twin Peak · 12-24-2003, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabyArnold
Personally I think that if you are under 25 you are already producing the same amount of test as some bodybuilders shoot in the ass. Or at least close to it.

Sorry, but this is just plain stupid.

Twin Peak · 12-24-2003, 09:42 AM

Side effects, transient and permanent will depend on the substance, the dose, the length of cycle(s), the precautionary and post cycle measures, and your predispositions.

In other words, there is no sure fire way of knowing. That said, used "intelligently" (i.e. taking into consideration all of the above) you can significantly minimize permanent effects, and, to a lesser degree, transient ones.

I will say, that use of anabolics is certainly a slippery slope.

Generally, I'd advise like Mudge, 6-12 months of hardcore training and diet; full knowledge of training, diet, supplementation, and the anabolics involved; and slowed or halted gains. At a minimum.

MeatheadSam · 12-24-2003, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Sorry, but this is just plain stupid.

Do us the favour of keeping this kind of comment to yourself. We have been down this road on threads before and it adds no value to the discussion.

The post following this one is quite informative and useful, so thank you for that input. So why erode your credibility with off the wall degrading comments?

But what B Arnold said in this statement does make sense to me. A 25 year old or less should not be at any loss of natural testosterone production so why would they wish to shoot up? As a matter of fact some people produce quite normal test well into the 30's and if you remain active the body does so beyond that.

I do not advocate steroid use as I consider it dangerous. But it is especially strange for a very young athelete to use them.

**Mudge** · 12-24-2003, 11:37 AM

I have seen a blood test of a never cycled 22 year old who was putting out something like 340ng. Now from what I remember of LAM who is I believe 34, and not white, he is putting out almost exactly double that.

But honestly, even again a high output 1000ng+ person, is not in the same neighborhood as someone running 500mg of test or more a week, which would put them way over that mark seeing how it is at least 5x more than normal, which we could probably call 2-3x higher than our high tester.

Not to say at all that I recommend jumping straight into the ball game. If someone is happy with thier gains, spend the time learning the training and dieting aspects like TP said, and then go from there. Plus waiting on these things lets you spend the time to study and see if its for you, or something you'd rather avoid.

Perhaps a genetically gifted person is going to look at an early juicer and laugh, but not all of us have the genetics to do that well. If someone starts out benching 80 pounds, I am not going to predict them benching 300 naturally any time soon.

prolangtum · 12-24-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeatheadSam
Do us the favour of keeping this kind of comment to yourself. We have been down this road on threads before and it adds no value to the discussion.

The post following this one is quite informative and useful, so thank you for that input. So why erode your credibility with off the wall degrading comments?

But what B Arnold said in this statement does make sense to me. A 25 year old or less should not be at any loss of natural testosterone production so why would they wish to shoot up? As a matter of fact some people produce quite normal test well into the 30's and if you remain active the body does so beyond that.

I do not advocate steroid use as I consider it dangerous. But it is especially strange for a very young athelete to use them.

Well, it is true. If you translate natural production into mgs of Test, it would be somewhere around 50-150mgs.

Twin Peak · 12-24-2003, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeatheadSam
Do us the favour of keeping this kind of comment to yourself. We have been down this road on threads before and it adds no value to the discussion.

The post following this one is quite informative and useful, so thank you for that input. So why erode your credibility with off the wall degrading comments?

But what B Arnold said in this statement does make sense to me. A 25 year old or less should not be at any loss of natural testosterone production so why would they wish to shoot up? As a matter of fact some people produce quite normal test well into the 30's and if you remain active the body does so beyond that.

I do not advocate steroid use as I consider it dangerous. But it is especially strange for a very young athelete to use them.

Fair enough. I should have said "incredibly ignorant" instead of stupid.

And decent prohormone will raise *anyones* test levels to supraphysiological levels. By supraphysiological I mean well higher than anyone else's normal endogenous T levels.

Use a good prosteroid, and the difference is even more dramatic.

Use a good injectible steroid, and the difference if even more dramatic.

Talk about a pro bodybuilder who uses insane amounts of injectible substances and you get someone who is far, far beyond what ANY NORMAL HUMAN OF ANY AGE in terms of test levels.

So to spout out that anyone under 25 has test levels of the equivalant of someone injecting is just plain silly nonsense.

MeatheadSam · 12-24-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Fair enough. I should have said "incredibly ignorant" instead of stupid.

So to spout out that anyone under 25 has test levels of the equivalant of someone injecting is just plain silly nonsense.

Thanks. You are obviously correct here but I guess the thing that I am saying is why does a young person feel the need for all that extra test? The risks outweigh the advantages to any rational thinking individual.

Heck, the roid rage might land you in jail or put you at the wrong end of a gun.

**Mudge** · 12-24-2003, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeatheadSam
The risks outweigh the advantages to any rational thinking individual.

Heck, the roid rage might land you in jail or put you at the wrong end of a gun.

I'm glad you are up on the latest fictional stories. Its no wonder the feds want to outlaw prohormones, I'm betting they think just like you do.

What are these risks you speak of? Is this to say that 18 year olds are incredibly unhealthy because of all this "massive" testosterone in thier systems?

I'd like to hear your medical theories that apparently I haven't heard of.

12-23-2003, 02:18 PM	#1
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	When do anabolics become an rational option? When is a person "ready" for something like M1T... or any steroid for that matter? I feel like i'm progressing decently without using any anabolics, but it seems like everyone on the boards and a whole lot of people at my gym are popping them like candy. http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

12-23-2003, 03:06 PM	#2
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,196	Usually, you would want at LEAST several solid years of training. If you are still making decent gains, I would wait. Lots of factors are involved including age. Start slowly and progress slowly with PH's for best results. 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

12-23-2003, 03:20 PM	#3
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,474 Photos: 1	If you are pleased with your gains now, then I would probably hold off. For people not pleased with thier natural gains, then it becomes a "I want it" situation. However I think everyone pretty much assumes that we have around 6 months before this stuff is illegal. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

12-23-2003, 04:13 PM	#9
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	!!! http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

12-23-2003, 04:38 PM	#10
MeatheadSam Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 239	It is a personal matter but I do not advocate them and have never used them. I did have plenty of opportunity when I was in Europe in the Military back in the 80's. The other guys were getting them off base and using them. But if you plan to compete then in BB you almost have to take something. Find a medical professional to keep you in line and "safe". Know what you are using and how to use it safely. Like any drug a steriod has dosage limits that need to be adhered to. Just a regular guy.

12-23-2003, 03:51 PM	#4
BabyArnold Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 260	Personally I think that if you are under 25 you are already producing the same amount of test as some bodybuilders shoot in the ass. Or at least close to it. Depending on your body and what you want, you should wait until your system slows like after 25. If you use your own bodies supply to it's max and then you stop making gains then you can start adding to it. But I don't think that it works to it's potential unless your body is already maxed out naturally. Plus your muscles need to be used to being pounded day in and day out before you use something that is going to jump your squat from 200 to 500. There are lots of muscles that need to be worked before you do this.

12-23-2003, 03:53 PM	#5
BabyArnold Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 260	Am I right Mudge????????? You're alright Mudge! I don't like people too much, but you seem intelligent enough for me to get along with.

12-23-2003, 04:08 PM	#8
BabyArnold Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 260	I know guys at the gym that are geared up and have been for years and they are wasting their time!!! They look like nothing! And I also know guys that don't ever work out and are damn huge!!

12-23-2003, 04:43 PM	#11
BabyArnold Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 260	Meat! You an Army Dog?????

12-23-2003, 06:35 PM	#14
prolangtum Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 353	Honestly, there never is solid rationale for using androgens. Unless you support yourself by your body appearance (model, pro BBer, etc) there is never a reason besides narcissitic reason. It is not healthy no matter what precautions you take, to use PH or AAS, to be frank. But do I use them? Yes. I had an excuse before, I was a stripper from 18-23. Being in shape and looking good was my job. Now, I work at a desk on a computer most of the time but I still do use them. Will I stop any time soon? Probaly not. A choice you make, and have to live with it. Mod @ Bulknutrition Forums Mod @ superiormuscle.com Mod @ steroidsupport.com Designersupps.com Bulknutrition.com Blackstarlabs.com

12-23-2003, 08:45 PM	#19
Power Rabbit The Bunny Is Bulking! Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,027 Photos: 3	I dont look at other people and judge myself by how fast they are gaining compared to me. As long as my gains are what I want em to be, Im happy. And when they stop being what I want em to be I give myself a little boost. When you feel that your gains aint like you want em to be, maby its time for a little boost. And while you should be vigilent about doing things right( RESEARCH!!!!), there is no way to tell whether there will be side effects or not. It does make you alot less likely to be boned by those effects though.

12-23-2003, 09:07 PM	#20
MeatheadSam Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 239	It is considered in the medical community that Arnolds heart problem and subsequent surgery was due to steroid use. Just a regular guy.

12-24-2003, 09:42 AM	#24
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,870	Side effects, transient and permanent will depend on the substance, the dose, the length of cycle(s), the precautionary and post cycle measures, and your predispositions. In other words, there is no sure fire way of knowing. That said, used "intelligently" (i.e. taking into consideration all of the above) you can significantly minimize permanent effects, and, to a lesser degree, transient ones. I will say, that use of anabolics is certainly a slippery slope. Generally, I'd advise like Mudge, 6-12 months of hardcore training and diet; full knowledge of training, diet, supplementation, and the anabolics involved; and slowed or halted gains. At a minimum. www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

12-24-2003, 11:37 AM	#26
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,474 Photos: 1	I have seen a blood test of a never cycled 22 year old who was putting out something like 340ng. Now from what I remember of LAM who is I believe 34, and not white, he is putting out almost exactly double that. But honestly, even again a high output 1000ng+ person, is not in the same neighborhood as someone running 500mg of test or more a week, which would put them way over that mark seeing how it is at least 5x more than normal, which we could probably call 2-3x higher than our high tester. Not to say at all that I recommend jumping straight into the ball game. If someone is happy with thier gains, spend the time learning the training and dieting aspects like TP said, and then go from there. Plus waiting on these things lets you spend the time to study and see if its for you, or something you'd rather avoid. Perhaps a genetically gifted person is going to look at an early juicer and laugh, but not all of us have the genetics to do that well. If someone starts out benching 80 pounds, I am not going to predict them benching 300 naturally any time soon.

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