A cycle revalation

Power Rabbit · 12-30-2003, 07:11 PM

After posting a question on the MAD thread Ive become of something VERY interesting.

The question involved the dreaded "Deca Dik" and its correlation to certain phoromones.

Deca dik, for those who dont know, is a steroid slang for the effects of a person on the steroid Deca. A person on a cycle of only deca is likely to see a loss in being able to "stand at attension." This is because deca is not raiseing your test levels, but still shuts down your test production. Steroids that arent just test all do this to some degree.

The solution for this among "gear" users is to allways run test in some form on any cycle. In fact, most any good cycle has test as the basis.

When thinking about phoromones and general PH stacks something didnt exactly sit right with me because of this. After alittle thinking I finally figured out what that was.

Think about why people usually run 4-AD in a PH stack for a sec. The first thing to come to mind would more than likely be be libido. Why is this? Simple! 4-AD directly converts to testosterone.

You may be thinking 1-t is raiseing my test levels. Its not. The name is very misleading. Its basically similar to testosterone except instead of a 4,5-double bond, it has a 1,2-double bond. It does not become testosterone to my knowledge. This does not mean it isnt annabolic, just that it isnt real natural test and will shut down test production without replaceing it.

Now, lets bridge the gap from gear to phoromones for a sec. Running test as the basis of all steroid cycles is pretty sound advice. 4-AD, since it converts directly to test, should be the base of all phoromone cycles; NOT 1-T. 1-t is a solid phoromone, but to run it without test(or in the legal case 4-AD) is kinda violateing a general steroid rule.

So from now on. One should really not think "Maby ill throw some 4-ad in for libido," they should think "Maby i should add some 1-t for gains."

Im sort of guessing at some of this, so definately help me in places that Im wrong but I do think my reasoning is pretty solid.)

**Mudge** · 12-30-2003, 08:39 PM

Deca is not just a hit to natural T levels but it is a progesterone booster, this is why its IMO stupid to take by itself, double whammy. Fina is the same.

Something else that is a single hit but not a testosterone by itself would be perhaps Winstrol, so I suppose if someone ran winny long term you could have winny-dick.

If 1-Test is not test, then it would be stupid to call it that. I suppose its "stupid" that I dont know, but I know nada about legals.

100%legalmass · 12-30-2003, 09:09 PM

So if I do a cycle with M 1-T, I will probally need to throw some 4-Ad for my libido. Not just go with the M 1-T all by itself right.

Power Rabbit · 12-30-2003, 09:11 PM

Yea thats the thing... 1-t is annabolic, but does not become test. Its just a very misleading name. That big T sure sounds enought like testosterone, so no one ever gives it any thought.

I think big cat wrote this "To sum up, it has reduced estrogenic and increased androgenic activity. This allows for increases in strength and aggression, reduction of body-fat, and a leaner look to the physique. If we replace the dihydro structure with a 4,5-double bond, then we would see that 1-testosterone is in fact a 5-alpha-reduced version of the hormone boldenone, a testosterone analog with an added 1,2-double bond that is characterized as being much milder than testosterone, both estrogenically and androgenically. "

Does kinda show why 1-t does not really act like test, but more like primo.

Power Rabbit · 12-30-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 100%legalmass
So if I do a cycle with M 1-T, I will probally need to throw some 4-Ad for my libido. Not just go with the M 1-T all by itself right.

Yup.

**Mudge** · 12-30-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Power Rabbit
Its just a very misleading name. That big T sure sounds enought like testosterone, so no one ever gives it any thought.

When they call it 1-Test you better believe its missleading to me at least

So its like EQ (which is 'like' dianabol graphically), interesting.

JerseyDevil · 12-31-2003, 04:36 AM

It's always been my understanding that 1-test is different then testosterone, and is more similar to Primo. Here is an excerpt from Ergopharm's 1-AD promotional literature and explains the development of 1-test.

Quote:

Introducing 1-AD

It’s time to introduce what Patrick refers to as “the crown achievement” of his career. The formal chemical name of the compound Patrick developed is 5alpha-androst-1-en-3,17-dione. We nicknamed this compound “1-AD” which is a shortened acronym of its chemical name. Its chemical structure is:

This compound is truly unique amongst other prohormones in a variety of ways. Let’s look specifically at 1-AD and what it does.

The Power of 1-Testosterone

You probably are familiar with the “Andro” prohormones, and the “Norandro” prohormones. The former convert to testosterone and the latter to 19-nortestosterone. 1-AD, however, does not fit into either of those categories. That is because 1-AD converts to a relatively unheard of hormone called 1-testosterone. 1-testosterone is what is known as a “double bond isomer” of testosterone.

Although chemically the only difference between testosterone and 1-testosterone is the position of the double bond, pharmacologically the two products are quite different. According to research done by the pharmaceutical giant G.D. Searle and published in the 1960s, 1-testosterone is over 7 times as myotrophic (anabolic) as testosterone(1). That makes 1-testosterone a phenomenally potent compound, surpassing even most synthetic anabolic steroids.

No Aromatization

1-testosterone differs from testosterone in another way as well. Being a 5alpha-reduced androgen (a DHT derivative) it simply cannot aromatize to estrogens. The same goes for 1-AD itself — no estrogen transformation can occur. This makes 1-AD unique compared to other prohormones — all of which can either aromatize directly, convert to a product that aromatizes, or both. So what does this mean in the real world? It means that your chances of getting gynecomastia (bitch tits) from 1-AD is essentially zero, and that water retention side effects are vastly reduced compared to other prohormones.

The Only Truly “Orally Active” Prohormone

Natural androgenic steroids are normally not very active orally. Large amounts have to be taken orally to see biological effects. This is because the first pass through the liver causes a massive deactivation of the compounds, primarily through the oxidation of the 17beta-hydroxyl to a 17-keto group. Chemists long ago found that by adding an alkyl (methyl or ethyl) chemical group to the alpha position of the 17 carbon, this oxidation can be prevented. However, this alkyl derivatization also greatly increases the liver toxicity. Therefore the usage of such synthetically altered compounds (methyltestosterone, oxymetholone, stanozolol) are not without substantial risk.

Luckily, there are other ways to render a steroid orally active, and do so without making the compound toxic to the liver. Certain structural modifications can alter the metabolism of steroids making them resistant to liver breakdown. One of these modifications is unsaturation (presence of a double bond) in the 1-position. One steroid that has this structural modification and is orally active is the anabolic steroid Methenolone, also known as Primobolan.

As you may have noticed, this double bond position that makes Primobolan orally active is the same one found in 1-AD, which, by the way, is also orally active. Steroids with this particular double bond characteristic are known as 1-dehydroandrostanes.

During the 60’s and 70’s some papers were published describing the phenomenon of oral activity seen with 1-dehydroandrostanes, including 1-testosterone and 1-AD. What was discovered was that these compounds resist metabolic deactivation by profoundly shifting what is known as the “17-keto redox potential” towards the formation of active 17beta-hydroxyl steroids(2,3). What does this mean? It means that when you take 1-AD, the liver serves primarily to activate the compound, rather than break it down and excrete it as it does with other prohormones and testosterone. It means that 1-AD is “orally active,” yet it does not impart the liver toxicity that 17alpha-alkylation does.

JerseyDevil · 12-31-2003, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Im sort of guessing at some of this, so definately help me in places that Im wrong but I do think my reasoning is pretty solid.)

I think your reasoning is solid also. The addition of good ole testosterone would be a good thing. I had already decided on using 4AD with my next M1-t cycle for some of the reasons you mentioned. Estrogen is not a bad thing, and in fact helps gains. But I would recommend having Nolva on hand.

Power Rabbit · 12-31-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge

So its like EQ (which is 'like' dianabol graphically), interesting.

Yea it must be why people lean out, and gain strength on it rather than bulk.

Twin Peak · 12-31-2003, 12:52 PM

Then why have we never seen "1-test dick"?

**Mudge** · 12-31-2003, 01:05 PM

Haven't some people reported that when coming off? I could be wrong, you know I am not 100% up on this stuff.

Twin Peak · 12-31-2003, 01:08 PM

I have heard of loss of libido (which is common) but not inability.

Dante B. · 12-31-2003, 01:38 PM

Post-cycle, after any androgen, a wilt in libido and perhaps an inability to achieve an erection is possible.

DHT, after all, is involved in nitric oxide synthase production. That also explains why certain androgens may not only diminish the sexual appetite, but also affect the very ability to get it up; that is, natural testosterone as well as DHT production is compromised, and the exogenous androgen(s) can't replicate every effect of testosterone and its metabolites.

And 1-Test does covert to DHT, and as androgens do have an effect on neurochemicals, it's possible to have a diminished sex drive, without it affecting erection potential.

This is also why it's incredibly moronic to speak of androgens solely in terms of "androgenic" and "anabolic," as in:

"Dude, it makes you tired/aggressive because it isn't androgenic enough/because it's too androgenic."

prolangtum · 12-31-2003, 01:49 PM

Dante, its not dude, its Bro.

Dante B. · 12-31-2003, 01:52 PM

Shit. My bad

All of these "bro" companies, as well as their bastard, mentally challenged reps, manage to run my brain straight down the toilet after repeated exposure.

**dg806** · 12-31-2003, 05:45 PM

It has always been my opinion that 4/ad should be the base of any cycle. But then again, I have always liked it!

Power Rabbit · 12-31-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Then why have we never seen "1-test dick"?

Dante answered it pretty well.... Better than I could... Im not really scientifical enough to tell ya. My best guess is because things that promote progesterone levels are usually the biggest libido killers....and since 1-t dosent have any progesterone effects you arent gonna get "1-t dik."

Thats beside the point though. I just posted this cause I was taken back when I realized 1-t didnt really become test and 4-ad does.

Dante B. · 01-01-2004, 02:47 PM

Just as you can't explain the actions of a steroid hormone with "anabolic" and "androgenic" alone, the same holds true for "estrogenic," and progestational.

Setting aside those with concerns over gyno and such:

Just as testosterone should be the base of any illicit anabolic cycle, 4-Diol should be the base of any PH cycle that's over two weeks long.

Power Rabbit · 01-01-2004, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.

Just as testosterone should be the base of any illicit anabolic cycle, 4-Diol should be the base of any PH cycle that's over two weeks long.

Yup! Totally agree.

12-30-2003, 07:11 PM	#1
Power Rabbit The Bunny Is Bulking! Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,027 Photos: 3	A cycle revalation After posting a question on the MAD thread Ive become of something VERY interesting. The question involved the dreaded "Deca Dik" and its correlation to certain phoromones. Deca dik, for those who dont know, is a steroid slang for the effects of a person on the steroid Deca. A person on a cycle of only deca is likely to see a loss in being able to "stand at attension." This is because deca is not raiseing your test levels, but still shuts down your test production. Steroids that arent just test all do this to some degree. The solution for this among "gear" users is to allways run test in some form on any cycle. In fact, most any good cycle has test as the basis. When thinking about phoromones and general PH stacks something didnt exactly sit right with me because of this. After alittle thinking I finally figured out what that was. Think about why people usually run 4-AD in a PH stack for a sec. The first thing to come to mind would more than likely be be libido. Why is this? Simple! 4-AD directly converts to testosterone. You may be thinking 1-t is raiseing my test levels. Its not. The name is very misleading. Its basically similar to testosterone except instead of a 4,5-double bond, it has a 1,2-double bond. It does not become testosterone to my knowledge. This does not mean it isnt annabolic, just that it isnt real natural test and will shut down test production without replaceing it. Now, lets bridge the gap from gear to phoromones for a sec. Running test as the basis of all steroid cycles is pretty sound advice. 4-AD, since it converts directly to test, should be the base of all phoromone cycles; NOT 1-T. 1-t is a solid phoromone, but to run it without test(or in the legal case 4-AD) is kinda violateing a general steroid rule. So from now on. One should really not think "Maby ill throw some 4-ad in for libido," they should think "Maby i should add some 1-t for gains." Im sort of guessing at some of this, so definately help me in places that Im wrong but I do think my reasoning is pretty solid.)

12-30-2003, 08:39 PM	#2
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Deca is not just a hit to natural T levels but it is a progesterone booster, this is why its IMO stupid to take by itself, double whammy. Fina is the same. Something else that is a single hit but not a testosterone by itself would be perhaps Winstrol, so I suppose if someone ran winny long term you could have winny-dick. If 1-Test is not test, then it would be stupid to call it that. I suppose its "stupid" that I dont know, but I know nada about legals.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-31-2003, 12:52 PM	#10
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	Then why have we never seen "1-test dick"?
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

12-31-2003, 01:05 PM	#11
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Haven't some people reported that when coming off? I could be wrong, you know I am not 100% up on this stuff.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-31-2003, 01:08 PM	#12
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	I have heard of loss of libido (which is common) but not inability.
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

12-30-2003, 09:09 PM	#3
100%legalmass just trying to make it Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: mississippi Posts: 53	So if I do a cycle with M 1-T, I will probally need to throw some 4-Ad for my libido. Not just go with the M 1-T all by itself right.

12-30-2003, 09:11 PM	#4
Power Rabbit The Bunny Is Bulking! Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,027 Photos: 3	Yea thats the thing... 1-t is annabolic, but does not become test. Its just a very misleading name. That big T sure sounds enought like testosterone, so no one ever gives it any thought. I think big cat wrote this "To sum up, it has reduced estrogenic and increased androgenic activity. This allows for increases in strength and aggression, reduction of body-fat, and a leaner look to the physique. If we replace the dihydro structure with a 4,5-double bond, then we would see that 1-testosterone is in fact a 5-alpha-reduced version of the hormone boldenone, a testosterone analog with an added 1,2-double bond that is characterized as being much milder than testosterone, both estrogenically and androgenically. " Does kinda show why 1-t does not really act like test, but more like primo.

12-31-2003, 01:38 PM	#13
Dante B. Non Compost Mentis Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 598 Photos: 8	Post-cycle, after any androgen, a wilt in libido and perhaps an inability to achieve an erection is possible. DHT, after all, is involved in nitric oxide synthase production. That also explains why certain androgens may not only diminish the sexual appetite, but also affect the very ability to get it up; that is, natural testosterone as well as DHT production is compromised, and the exogenous androgen(s) can't replicate every effect of testosterone and its metabolites. And 1-Test does covert to DHT, and as androgens do have an effect on neurochemicals, it's possible to have a diminished sex drive, without it affecting erection potential. This is also why it's incredibly moronic to speak of androgens solely in terms of "androgenic" and "anabolic," as in: "Dude, it makes you tired/aggressive because it isn't androgenic enough/because it's too androgenic."
	Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity. Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

12-31-2003, 01:49 PM	#14
prolangtum Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 353	Dante, its not dude, its Bro.
	Mod @ Bulknutrition Forums Mod @ superiormuscle.com Mod @ steroidsupport.com Designersupps.com Bulknutrition.com Blackstarlabs.com

12-31-2003, 01:52 PM	#15
Dante B. Non Compost Mentis Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 598 Photos: 8	Shit. My bad All of these "bro" companies, as well as their bastard, mentally challenged reps, manage to run my brain straight down the toilet after repeated exposure.
	Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity. Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

12-31-2003, 05:45 PM	#16
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,155	It has always been my opinion that 4/ad should be the base of any cycle. But then again, I have always liked it!
	www.sbmuscle.com

01-01-2004, 02:47 PM	#18
Dante B. Non Compost Mentis Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 598 Photos: 8	Just as you can't explain the actions of a steroid hormone with "anabolic" and "androgenic" alone, the same holds true for "estrogenic," and progestational. Setting aside those with concerns over gyno and such: Just as testosterone should be the base of any illicit anabolic cycle, 4-Diol should be the base of any PH cycle that's over two weeks long.
	Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity. Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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