Diesel

just wantin to know about it was thinking of taking it for my bulk stage shoul i or no?

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plouffe

I've heard very good things about 1-AD. Although if i was bulking and my bf% was above 16-17% I wouldn't use a PH.

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Personal Bests:

Bench - 235
Deadlift - 315 X 17
Squat - 315 X 11
40 yrd. - 4.65

Prince

why is that?

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PreMier

Cuz plouffe is an oddball hahaha

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camarosuper6

I love this face...LOL

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Randy

Yeah, why wouldn't you?

I was thinking of taking 1AD before my methyl test comes in... My source is out right now . I hear 1AD is much easier on the liver.
But even with the methyl test, I would probably only do it every 3 months or so... 4 times a year. Then it should give your liver plenty of time to regenerate I would think.

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HoldDaMayo

just cuz you've got weight to lose doesn't mean PH's wont' make you stronger and build muslce faster

Are you kidding me????

JerseyDevil

Maybe he is concerned about gyno? PHs help me drop BF, even ones with 4AD.

Randy, I highly recommend trying 1AD first, before jumping into M1T. I feel 1AD is underrated. On your first cycle, you will get great gains with just a modest amount of PH. The trick for keeping gains coming is to use the least amount necessary with each subsequent cycle. Trust me, M1T is overkill for a first cycle, and the sides can be harsh.

plouffe

Yeah, that's what I've heard about PH's and high bf%. Higher chance of gyno.

These are my favorite faces : - - -

Personal Bests:

Bench - 235
Deadlift - 315 X 17
Squat - 315 X 11
40 yrd. - 4.65

X Ring

Jersey Devil, or anyone, you think for a first time 1-AD is better solo? What about 4-AD? Don't people take the 4-ad with 1-T, could you take 4-ad or 1-ad with m1-t? Please excuse my ignornace, trying to get my stuff straight here, and I thank you for your time.

JerseyDevil

I think that a transdermal 4AD should be the base of any PH cycle. It converts to testosterone and greatly eases the common sides of 1AD, which are lethargy and loss of libido or sex drive. Plus it helps to add even more mass and strength (along with some bloating). Don't be afraid of the bloating, you'll lose that with proper post cycle therapy (PCT). For a typical 4 week 1AD/trans 4AD cycle, use 6-OXO for three weeks.

With my first 1AD cycle, I DIDN'T use 4AD and the lethargy was pretty bad. Sex drive was next to zero, which the wife didn't appreciate too much.

X Ring

thanks for the help. For a beginner cycle 4-ad transdermal for 4 weeks and then 3 weeks of 6-oxo (pills I assume). What would the dosages be for a beginner at 235-240 lbs? Any other sides I could expect. And i am at about 5000 cal/day and ~500 g protein/day
Thanks
Gary

JerseyDevil

For a first cycle, 300 mg ED of transdermal 4AD will work fine. For 1AD I would get two bottles of Ergopharm 1AD and follow this:

Week 1: 300 mg 1AD/300 mg 4AD
Week 2: 400 mg 1AD/300 mg 4AD
Week 3: 500 mg 1AD/300 mg 4AD
Week 4: 600 mg 1AD/300 mg 4AD

PCT (two bottles 6-OXO)
Week 6: 600 mg 6-OXO
Week 7: 600 mg 6-OXO
Week 8: 500 mg 6-OXO

SJ69

Is the 1-AD absorbed at a higher rate orally than the oral 4-AD?
I ask because 300-600mg 1-AD is recommended yet consensus is that 300mg of 4-AD oral isn't enough?

Randy

Jersey,

Thank you.. I appreciate your advice. I was thinking on the same lines. This is why I was going to do 1AD. I've been hearing how potent and harsh M1T is. I thought I would ramp up gradually.. and take like once every 3 months. This way I get a boost 4 times a year and I'm not going overkill and trashing my liver. But thanks for reinforcing this in my mind.

You mentioned sex drive as a side affect with 1AD.
I heard from people that after taking 1AD it increased their sex drive. I would expect that since it is increasing testosterone levels... Right?

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quakedout

Dude it totally killed my sex drive.My wife was freaking pissed!

Randy

Damn quakedout, that is not very encouraging

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JerseyDevil

NO. This is a common misconception. 1AD does not convert to testosterone, it converts to 1-testosterone (dihydroboldenone). This compound will shut down your natural test production, so you are left with a very low testosterone level. 4AD on the other hand DOES convert to testosterone, exactly the reason you should be stacking it with 1AD and 1-test products.

This is also the reason why post cycle therapy is so important. It kick starts your natural testosterone production once the cycle it over.

Randy

post cycle, 1AD, 4AD, testosterone, 1-testosterone, sex drive, no sex drive I think I need an aspirin, I have a headache.

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JerseyDevil

Exactly. When you mentioned trying M1T for a first cycle I had a feeling you hadn't researched this enough...

Randy

Your right Jersey....I'm a newbie when it comes to prohormones or anything of that sort. It is all very confusing to me.

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Gopros latest routines:

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quakedout

You should have sen the look on her face when the m1-t got here.:@

JerseyDevil

Maybe the following will help clear things up. It should be a sticky here as it answers a lot of questions (hint, hint mods).

Prohormones FAQ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prohormone FAQ
By pogue
pogue22@ziplip.com
Revision 1.3 - 6/12/03



Included here are some of the most common questions asked about prohormones. This has been compiled into information based on some scientific studies, but mostly from user feedback after years of success using prohormones. Please keep in mind that this document might have some errors and you will need to do much more reading before you decide whether or not use prohormones.

1. What are prohormones?

Prohormones are synthetically manufactured compounds which convert to anabolic hormones via enzymes in the liver; hormone precursors. They are commonly abbreviated as PHs.

2. What are they used for?

Prohormones are used by athletes looking to increase size, strength, endurance, reduce recovery time or add lean body mass. They are most often used for increasing muscle mass or reducing bodyfat levels. Life extension groups are also increasingly using prohormones as a means of hormone replacement therapy, as an alternative to prescription drug use.

3. Do they have side effects?

Yes. Prohormones can have the same side effects as anabolic steroids, and are dependant upon the user as to which side effects one might experience. Some side effects are acne, hair loss, breast tissue enlargement, and prostate swelling. The potential for these side effects does exist, but it can be reduced if one uses proper precautionary measures (see below). Generally, if a person is genetically predisposed to a side effect it will occur (i.e.: if someone has a history of male pattern baldness in the family, it could be assumed that this could be a side effect experienced if certain prohormones are used)

4. Which prohormones convert to which compounds?

Here is a list
4 androstenediol (4AD or 4diol) converts to testosterone
19 nor-4-androstenediol (Nordiol or nordiol) converts to nortestosterone or nandrolone
1 androstenediol (1AD) converts to 1-testosterone (dihydroboldenone)
1,4 androstenedione and 1,4 androstenediol (1,4andro or Boldione) converts to boldenone and slightly converts to estrogen (the diol version does not convert to estrogen)
5 alpha androstenediol (5AA) converts to DHT
3 beta androstenediol (3 beta) converts to DHT
3 alpha androstenediol (3 alpha) converts to DHT
4 hydroxy androstenedione converts to 4 hydroxy testosterone which is an aromatize inhibitor (blocks formation of estrogen)
7-KETO-DHEA does not convert to any active anabolic compounds
1-testosterone (1-test) is already an active compound and does not need to undergo conversion

Compounds you want to avoid.
5 androstenediol (5AD or 5diol) converts to testosterone at a very low rate and is an estrogen agonist
4 androstenedione (andro) converts to testosterone and estrone (estrogen)
19 nor-4-androstenedione (norandro) converts to nortestosterone and estrogen
DHEA converts to androstenedione and can be converted to all other hormones
Pregnenolone converts to progesterone and can be converted to all other hormones

5. How do prohormones work?

Basically, when they are administered into the system, they are broken down in the liver and converted to their target hormone via certain enzymes. There have been a number of quotes describing how much of the hormone is converted, but there is no definitive answer as to how much of the prohormone is converted into its target active. Once a certain amount is created, the enzymes used for conversion become saturated and no more can be converted. This is true with all the compounds, except for 1-testosterone which really isn’t a prohormone.

6. What do the target hormones do?

Each hormone works in different ways once it is converted, but essentially it attaches to an androgen receptor in the cells of your body. This in turn increases nitrogen retention and protein synthesis, meaning that your body is in a constant anabolic state (assuming you are continuously supplying your body with the hormone). Here is a brief description of each hormone and what it does.

Testosterone is the primary male hormone responsible for development of the sex organs and muscle growth. Testosterone is both anabolic and androgenic—anabolic meaning it causes muscle growth and androgenic meaning that it causes development of secondary sex characteristics. Testosterone converts to both DHT and estrogen in its parent form. Testosterone is often the primary hormone used on a cycle of steroids. It is a mass builder, and will often help with unwanted androgenic side effects of other steroids. Although conversion to estrogen can cause many unwanted side effects on its own, testosterone should generally be the base to any cycle.

Nandrolone is an anabolic hormone, with not as much androgenic potential. It attaches to the androgen receptor with greater affinity than testosterone, but can cause a loss of libido and generally stays active in the system much longer than does testosterone. This is the “safest” choice for users who want to avoid most common side effects.

DHT (dihydrotestosterone) is the primary androgenic hormone in the body. It is responsible for increases in strength, as well as most of the unwanted side effects common with steroids. DHT is converted from testosterone via the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. DHT receptors are high in the scale, skin and prostate; high DTH levels are the most common cause of prostate swelling, acne, and male pattern baldness.

Boldenone is a veterinary hormone, which is commercially sold as Equipoise. Equipoise is known as an alternative to nandrolone when using steroids. It provides an increase in appetite, with some fat burning potential. Boldenone converts to estrogen at about half the rate of testosterone. Those who are looking to avoid some of the stronger androgenic side effects also commonly use it. 1-testosterone is the 5 alpha reduced version of Boldenone.

7. How do I take prohormones?

There are three common routes of administration for prohormones. These are usually based on their efficacy (i.e. how much is absorbed). Since the liver and stomach lining breaks down prohormones rather efficiently, taking them orally is the poorest route of administration. Most users prefer transdermal (topical) administration. When taken this way, you apply it to your skin and it will continue being absorbed over a period of 12 hours or so. Cyclodextrins or sublingual methods are also commonly used, which is where the prohormones are dissolved under the tongue. This also has a high level of absorption and works well. There are also some products on the market which are sold as “intraoral” or “intranasal”. These are meant to be sprayed into the nostril prior to your workout, and are generally only meant as preworkout boosts, not for a cycle of prohormones.

Some manufactures have started selling prohormones in oral form with an ester attached. This, in theory, will allow it to be slowly absorbed for many hours similar to the other methods, but to my knowledge, there have been no studies demonstrating that this method increases bioavailability.

8. What is a cycle? What does stacking mean?

A cycle is generally used to describe a length of time and common dosage when taking prohormones. Stacking means taking more than one prohormone at a time to increase gains or reduce side effects. Common cycle lengths are 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and 8 weeks. I recommend 4 week cycles, which seem to give the most gains with fewer sides. I would not recommend going beyond 8 weeks.

Common stacks are 4AD and Nordiol, 1AD and 4AD, 1-test and 4AD, etc. You will notice most everything is stacked with 4AD. This is because testosterone gives you a bit more leverage, providing good gains and overall anabolism, with reduced androgenic side effects. Each of the prohormones can be taken alone, or taken together. The choice is yours and should be made from reading this text, and all the user feedback from this board and others. Research, research, research!

9. What is post cycle therapy?

Post cycle therapy is a tried and true method of helping to solidify your gains by raising natural testosterone levels and lowering estrogen levels once your cycle is over. When you add external hormones to your body, your own natural production becomes suppressed. Your body attempts to compensate your endocrine system by stabilizing the other hormones, which results in an increase in estrogen. Once you quit supplying your body with external hormones, your natural testosterone will be low and estrogen will be high. Therefore, anti-estrogens are taken to halt the manufacture of estrogen in the body. This will result in higher testosterone levels, hence making it easier to keep your gains. Post cycle therapy should begin the next day after the prohormones have stopped being taken. Common post cycle therapy drugs are listed below with dosages:

6OXO
6oxo is an aromatize inhibitor sold by Ergopharm. It is the best over the counter anti-estrogen available for post cycle use.
Week 1 – 600mg daily in two divided doses, morning and night
Week 2-3 – 400mg daily
Week 4 – 300mg daily

Formasin/Formastat/Aromazap
Note: 4 hydroxy androstenedione acts as a weak androgen and can cause further suppression of natural testosterone, but can be used post cycle.
Dosages should be 250mg a day for the first two weeks, followed by anywhere from 50-250mg a day for the next two.

Clomid
Clomid is a prescription fertility drug, but is highly available and highly effective at blocking estrogen and increasing LH output.
Day 1 – 300mg
Day 2-11 100mg
Day 11-21 50mg
OR
150mg daily for 2 weeks
100mg daily for 2 weeks

Nolvadex
Nolvadex is also a prescription, which is highly available and blocks estrogen at the receptor.
Week 1-2 – 40mg daily
Week 2-4 – 20mg daily

There are other prescription anti-estrogens available, but these two will be fine unless side effects arise, so we won’t discuss the other options in this FAQ.

Other common post cycle favorites including high doses of flax oil, ZMA, tribulus and an ECA stack coupled with reduced training volume and increased calories (500 or so above maintenance). But, it is very important to use an anti-estrogen for post cycle. I would never recommend not using one unless the cycle length is 2 weeks or less.

10. What dosages should I use?

Dosages are different for the different routes of administration and for the different hormones taken. Here is a basic outline of each prohormone along with general cycles used, based on user feedback. For your first cycle, I recommend sticking to a lighter dosing schedule for 2-4 weeks. Note: This is a general guideline. Dosages for any cycle can be higher or lower, and some products may incorporate one or more of these compounds so that the below amount might not be able to be achieved. This is just a basic outline and is far from completely accurate.

1AD

1AD is by far the most popular prohormone. It is considered to be the most effective taken orally, and has resounding user feedback. It is best stacked with 4AD to reduce side effects, the most common of which include lethargy and reduced libido. 1AD should not be used transdermally, and could be used sublingually, although there are few products with this delivery system used. 1AD is commonly stacked with 4AD and shouldn’t be stacked with nordiol, or the DHT precursors.

4-6 week cycles are best taken at anywhere from 300-900mg daily. Take in divided doses throughout the day to keep blood levels elevated.

4AD

4AD is the next best. It is almost always used with other hormones due also to its resounding user feedback and adding large amounts of mass from increases in testosterone and estrogen. 4AD can be taken orally, transdermally, or sublingually.
2-6 week cycles are generally used. 4AD can be stacked with just about anything.

Oral:
300-1500mg daily. Oral is probably the worst way to take this, but if you are simply looking to reduce sides of 1AD, etc – it works. Take in divided doses to ensure elevated blood levels.

Transdermal:
400-600mg daily with two applications in morning at night.

Sublingual:
Probably 15-50mg at a time, 3 times or more daily in divided doses.

Nordiol

Nordiol is the best prohormone for use by people who want to avoid the common androgenic sides associated with the other hormones. Can be taken orally, transdermally or sublingually. 2-4 week cycles recommended. Heavily suppressive, despite what literature says. Nordiol is commonly stacked with 4ad for mass, or 1,4andro for cutting or users wanting reduced sides effects.

Oral:
500-800mg daily in divided doses

Transdermal:
500-800mg daily in split doses morning and night

Sublingual:
15-50mg in divided doses

1,4andro

1,4andro is renowned for causing appetite stimulation. It’s low in estrogenic sides and good for cutting or bulking. Some people claim that transdermal administration works well, but the feedback I’ve seen has been poor. Oral seems to be the route of administration, and the dione version appears to work better than the diol. 1,4andro can be stacked with just about anything. Taking 1,4andro for less than 4 weeks is generally a waste because it takes quite a while for the effects to kick in.

Oral:
300-600mg daily in divided doses.

Transdermal:
N/A



Sublingual:
N/A

1-testosterone

1-test is the active form of 1AD and is best taken transdermally or sublingually, although oral products suspended in oil with an ether attached also have very good feedback. 1-test is best stacked with 4AD for mass or 1,4andro for cutting.

Oral:
150-300mg when taken in ethergel product in divided doses

Transdermal:
200-500mg daily or more in split doses

Sublingual:
Not sure


5AA/3 beta/3 alpha

These all convert to DHT at different rates and have slightly different properties. I’m a little hazy on all of them, except that 5 alpha can compete with estrogen for receptor activity when converted to DHT. Some people have used 5AA in an oral product as a preworkout boost, while others have used 3 alpha for a “hardening” agent.

Thanks to roobear for the below info on DHT precursors

Quote:
3-Alpha/Beta
3-alpha/beta will illicit exactly the same anabolic/androgenic responses, differing only in their conversion rates - 3-alpha 43% / 3-beta 9% respectively. The bioavailability of 3-alpha/beta is purported to be relatively low (by Bill himself) and thus would serve well to be administered transdermally. These compounds are best used in conjunction with other compounds, preferably of an anabolic nature (ie Nordiol, 1,4 Andro and 4-AD) - inducing drastic increases in strength, vascularity and muscle hardness.

3-Alpha
Oral:
100-300mg (lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)

Transdermal:
50-150mg (lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)

3-Beta
Oral:
Outdated - use 3-alpha

Transdermal:
200-500mg(lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)


7-Keto-DHEA

This is slightly out of the scope of this FAQ, but is generally used for cutting. This has been shown to increase thyroid output and lower cortisol levels, without converting to target hormones. Used for cutting stacked with other thermogenic compounds for 4-6 weeks.

Oral:
200mg in two divided doses

Transdermal:
100mg daily

11. Are prohormones legal?

Yes, currently they are legal in the US and some other countries. Please visit www.usfa.biz and write your politicians to ensure they stay that way. Prohormones are not tested for in job drug tests, but they are probably banned and can potentially show up on a drug test for athletics. Check your local laws for specific information.

12. Who should use prohormones?

Mature adults above the age of 21 looking for increases in lean muscle mass or decreases in bodyfat levels. Most veterans will advise using prohormones after several years of training, to ensure you have a good feel for proper diet, nutrition and supplementation. Using prohormones under the age of 18 is a very bad idea; it can result in the closure of growth plates, thus resulting in permanently stunted growth; it can also result in potentially serious endocrine system problems. Those with potential for or already enlarged prostate or those susceptible to male pattern baldness should not use prohormones; nor should prohormones be used by people with heart conditions, who currently have gynocomastia, or have liver or kidney problems. If you have any doubts, see a doctor before using these compounds.

13. Can I take prohormones along with steroids?

This is a hotly debated subject. Yes, you can – but why? If you have access to steroids, why would you bother with prohormones? Anabolic steroids are already hormones in their current form and require no conversion – hence, they are more powerful, albeit illegal.
The only compound I would say that you could take with any other steroid would be
1-testosterone, which would be an equivalent of Primobolan or Equipose. The only other thing I can think of would be taking 4AD with Fina to reduce side effects. There is more information about this on boards like Anabolicminds or Animal’s board.

14. How can I avoid some of the potential side effects associated with prohormones?

There are certain ancillary compounds available to treat potential side effects of prohormones. Below is a list I compiled which is pretty basic and should help clarify some of the issues of side effects.

Prostate I