DHT and M1T--Set Record Straight

brodus · 02-27-2004, 02:57 PM

Okay, I've read every post on this board relating to M1-T, the PH sticky, and a lit. on lots of other sites. I am confused by conflicting information regarding DHT conversion and M1T.

I have read that 1-T cannot convert to DHT, and few users report DHT-related sides, especially hair loss. In fact, I don't know if I read any reports to this end. Is it commonly advertised as "no chance of DHT," but then warnings say "may cause hair loss," on some products, others do not say this.

But at the same time, Prince's PH FAQ lists DHT-related effects as "similar to any 1-test androgen," and advises against stacking with anything that would increase DHT activity.

Also, there is discussion that 1-T converts to DHT via a pathway that is not affected by finasteride, thus rendering moot any topical applications to prevent hair loss.

So what's the story? On a scale of 1-10, what can an average person expect in terms of DHT-related sides? (and i know it depends on individual chemsitry and genetic presidposition).

Power Rabbit · 02-27-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brodus

Also, there is discussion that 1-T converts to DHT via a pathway that is not affected by finasteride, thus rendering moot any topical applications to prevent hair loss.

no even if finastride/proscar/propecia is ineffective on some forms of PH or gear...this in no way makes topical things ineffective...nizzoral and rogaine are excellent at preventing hairloss on a cycle of anything...

**Dale Mabry** · 02-27-2004, 06:00 PM

Here is the deal. DHT is not the only androgen that causes hair loss. If any androgen will attach to the follicle, it can cause hair loss. Finasteride will only prevent 5-ar reduction of certain hormones. 5-ar reduction is what turns test to DHT, but it also causes deca to be reduced to a less potent androgen. Generally the less androgenic a hormone is, the less likely it is to cause androgenic sides (hair loss, acne, etc.) Finasteride is considered a DHT inhibitor, it prevents some DHT from being formed. If you are taking a product such as Dbol (Which forms DHT thru a pathway other than the 5ar route) or another that is just as androgenic as DHT, finasteride is useless. Finasteride is only one of 2 options you have. The second option is an androgen blocker, it attaches at the site on the follicle that an androgen would. The current theory behind hair loss is when an androgen attaches at the follicle, the body recognizes it as a foreign body and initiates an immune response. This causes inflammation and eventually hair loss. So one would assume that if the androgen doesn't attach then there will be no hair loss. This assumes that the body does not do the same to the product that attaches to the follicle in place of the androgen. From what I have seen, spironolactone is the only androgen blocker that has anecdotal evidence that it works.

Edit: I would not go on Rogaine unless you intend to stay on it for life.

brodus · 02-28-2004, 02:44 AM

Thanks for that detailed repsonse Dale, that makes alot of sense.

I guess I mis-spoke myself in my first post--I realize that topical solutions are different than fina.

I wouldn't use Rogaine, either, I know what happens when you stop!

So that doesn't get to the bottom of my quesiton though--since M1T is such a potent androgen, you would think it would have equally strong sides on the scalp, but anecdotal reports seem to say otherwise--what gives?

**Dale Mabry** · 02-28-2004, 10:37 AM

May not have the same structural shape, therefore won't bind at the receptor on the follicle.

JoeyM · 02-28-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brodus
Okay, I've read every post on this board relating to M1-T, the PH sticky, and a lit. on lots of other sites. I am confused by conflicting information regarding DHT conversion and M1T.

I have read that 1-T cannot convert to DHT, and few users report DHT-related sides, especially hair loss. In fact, I don't know if I read any reports to this end. Is it commonly advertised as "no chance of DHT," but then warnings say "may cause hair loss," on some products, others do not say this.

But at the same time, Prince's PH FAQ lists DHT-related effects as "similar to any 1-test androgen," and advises against stacking with anything that would increase DHT activity.

Also, there is discussion that 1-T converts to DHT via a pathway that is not affected by finasteride, thus rendering moot any topical applications to prevent hair loss.

So what's the story? On a scale of 1-10, what can an average person expect in terms of DHT-related sides? (and i know it depends on individual chemsitry and genetic presidposition).

I have been wondering the same thing myself. I hear one thing then I go and read another and it's the complete opposite from the first. It gets very confusing

Peace,
Joe

**Dale Mabry** · 02-28-2004, 01:11 PM

Also, you have to take into consideration how long you are taking the stuff. Most people take M1T for 2-3 weeks which would not give you all that much exposure to it whereas people take Dbol for 4+ weeks so they have it in their system longer.

brodus · 02-28-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Also, you have to take into consideration how long you are taking the stuff. Most people take M1T for 2-3 weeks which would not give you all that much exposure to it whereas people take Dbol for 4+ weeks so they have it in their system longer.

That's a very, very good point. I hadn't thought of that, and it makes a lot of sense.

And it does seem that M1T doesn't have the propensity to attach to the folicle receptors, esp. compared to other anrogens.

One more reason I might pull my M1T off the shelf and give it a shot next month!

Now the big question is what M-dien can do! I think we're all still waiting, anxiously, to see.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-29-2004, 11:16 AM

I was going to give it a try with my cycle, but they say not to use it with aromatizable stuff, which test is. I am gonna frontload with M1T for 2 weeks instead or backload with it and drop cals for 2 weeks, haven't decided yet.

02-27-2004, 02:57 PM	#1
brodus Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 945	DHT and M1T--Set Record Straight Okay, I've read every post on this board relating to M1-T, the PH sticky, and a lit. on lots of other sites. I am confused by conflicting information regarding DHT conversion and M1T. I have read that 1-T cannot convert to DHT, and few users report DHT-related sides, especially hair loss. In fact, I don't know if I read any reports to this end. Is it commonly advertised as "no chance of DHT," but then warnings say "may cause hair loss," on some products, others do not say this. But at the same time, Prince's PH FAQ lists DHT-related effects as "similar to any 1-test androgen," and advises against stacking with anything that would increase DHT activity. Also, there is discussion that 1-T converts to DHT via a pathway that is not affected by finasteride, thus rendering moot any topical applications to prevent hair loss. So what's the story? On a scale of 1-10, what can an average person expect in terms of DHT-related sides? (and i know it depends on individual chemsitry and genetic presidposition).
	Graham Cousens Band My Space http://www.flymantell.com http://www.bifunkal.com http://www.livebandkaraokechicago.com http://www.worldclassnoise.com

02-27-2004, 06:00 PM	#3
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	Here is the deal. DHT is not the only androgen that causes hair loss. If any androgen will attach to the follicle, it can cause hair loss. Finasteride will only prevent 5-ar reduction of certain hormones. 5-ar reduction is what turns test to DHT, but it also causes deca to be reduced to a less potent androgen. Generally the less androgenic a hormone is, the less likely it is to cause androgenic sides (hair loss, acne, etc.) Finasteride is considered a DHT inhibitor, it prevents some DHT from being formed. If you are taking a product such as Dbol (Which forms DHT thru a pathway other than the 5ar route) or another that is just as androgenic as DHT, finasteride is useless. Finasteride is only one of 2 options you have. The second option is an androgen blocker, it attaches at the site on the follicle that an androgen would. The current theory behind hair loss is when an androgen attaches at the follicle, the body recognizes it as a foreign body and initiates an immune response. This causes inflammation and eventually hair loss. So one would assume that if the androgen doesn't attach then there will be no hair loss. This assumes that the body does not do the same to the product that attaches to the follicle in place of the androgen. From what I have seen, spironolactone is the only androgen blocker that has anecdotal evidence that it works. Edit: I would not go on Rogaine unless you intend to stay on it for life. Last edited by Dale Mabry : 02-27-2004 at 06:12 PM.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-28-2004, 10:37 AM	#5
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	May not have the same structural shape, therefore won't bind at the receptor on the follicle.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-28-2004, 01:11 PM	#7
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	Also, you have to take into consideration how long you are taking the stuff. Most people take M1T for 2-3 weeks which would not give you all that much exposure to it whereas people take Dbol for 4+ weeks so they have it in their system longer.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-29-2004, 11:16 AM	#9
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	I was going to give it a try with my cycle, but they say not to use it with aromatizable stuff, which test is. I am gonna frontload with M1T for 2 weeks instead or backload with it and drop cals for 2 weeks, haven't decided yet.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-28-2004, 02:44 AM	#4
brodus Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 945	Thanks for that detailed repsonse Dale, that makes alot of sense. I guess I mis-spoke myself in my first post--I realize that topical solutions are different than fina. I wouldn't use Rogaine, either, I know what happens when you stop! So that doesn't get to the bottom of my quesiton though--since M1T is such a potent androgen, you would think it would have equally strong sides on the scalp, but anecdotal reports seem to say otherwise--what gives?

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