Supplement guru's... your advice please!

Monolith · 03-11-2004, 01:12 AM

I'm currently taking 2g/ED ALCAR, 2g/ED choline, and 800mg/ED phosphatidylserine.

My current source of choline is from the phosphatidylserine (NOW foods brand, stacked with choline and inositol).

I was looking to just start buying the straight PS powder, however, which means i need a new source of choline. At first i figured i'd just buy some bulk choline powder, but after a bit of reading it appears that DMAE (as its a precursor to choline and acetylcholine) would fit the bill. My question is - is this correct? And if so, what would proper dosing be?

I'm also looking to increase my ALCAR supplementation to 2.5g/2xday, and the PS to 1g/ED. Would also like to add in vinpocetine @ 20mg/2xD, and Piracetam @ 4g/ED.

I'm basically looking for some advice on what i'm planning on supplementing with, and in what form i should be supplementing with choline. (On a seperate note... does anyone have any information on how phosphatidylserine would interact with phosphatidylcholine? If i were to supplement with both, that is... as PS metabolizes into PC).

Err... I apologize if this is somewhat incoherent, its 3 am here. lol. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Monolith · 03-11-2004, 02:39 PM

bump

Twin Peak · 03-11-2004, 05:01 PM

$10 says you don't get any answers.

**dg806** · 03-11-2004, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
$10 says you don't get any answers.

I was waiting on you to answer.
I really wanted to know what his objective is?

camarosuper6 · 03-11-2004, 05:17 PM

OK....

phosphatidylserine is used by bodybuilders UP TO 800 mg/ED with no saftey issues. I'm assuming your either taking it for its effects on cortisol, but maybe also looking towards improving your brain function. (Choline is also used for improving brain function such as mental sharpness, and memory.)

I didnt find anything about combining phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine, and I dont see why the two would interact, however I did find this about interactions with phosphatidylserine:

Prescription blood thinners, such as warfarin (Coumadin), heparin, aspirin, pentoxifylline (Trental), clopidogrel (Plavix), or ticlopidine (Ticlid): Do not use phosphatidylserine except on a physician's advice.

Ginkgo, garlic, or vitamin E: Taking phosphatidylserine at the same time might conceivably "thin" the blood too much.

vinpocetine should be limited to no more than 10mg per day accroding to most studies I have read, due to lack of long term research.

I also found that the effect of piracetam can be increased if taken with DMAE, centrophenoxine, choline, or Hydergine. When choline and piracetam are taken together there is a synergistic effect that causes a greater improvement in memory than the sum of each when taken alone (Bartus, 1981).

From all these supplements, I am gathering your looking to stimulate your body, sharpen your mind and have an NO2 like effect while working out?? Almost like combining a thermogenic/brain stimulant with a hemodiolater??

**dg806** · 03-11-2004, 05:20 PM

I'm guessing fat loss........

If this is the case, I think alcar and ala combined with choline at 900mg would be a great choice.

camarosuper6 · 03-11-2004, 05:21 PM

Do I get 10 bucks?

Twin Peak · 03-11-2004, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
I was waiting on you to answer.
I really wanted to know what his objective is?

His objective is to reduce cortisol/stress and to create a foundational nootropic stack. These are things I only know a little about, and so I can't help.

Twin Peak · 03-11-2004, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camarosuper6
Do I get 10 bucks?

Not bad actually. Though you weren't "on point."

camarosuper6 · 03-11-2004, 05:25 PM

I have been reading a bit about the nootropic stack, and from what Ive read, it seems very promising!

Twin Peak · 03-11-2004, 05:26 PM

Where'd ya read about that?

Twin Peak · 03-11-2004, 05:27 PM

Nootropic ain't my thang, as cognitavely, I am well put together. Though I do take ALCAR on top of my LeptiGen.

**dg806** · 03-11-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
His objective is to reduce cortisol/stress and to create a foundational nootropic stack. These are things I only know a little about, and so I can't help.

Wrong guess then.

camarosuper6 · 03-11-2004, 05:31 PM

Well, Im definitely no research scientist (am working on it though). I was reading about noobtropics on http://www.ceri.com/noot.htm ... pretty interesting.

camarosuper6 · 03-11-2004, 05:32 PM

Oh, and the question he asked was a bit too technical for me to be able to answer without a lot more resources OR actual education.

**dg806** · 03-11-2004, 05:34 PM

Something to look over..........

http://www.damicon.fi/sd/
http://www.hyperreal.org/nootropics/drugs/

Monolith · 03-11-2004, 08:11 PM

Hey, neat. Thanks for the replys.

TP is right on. The PS and ALCAR was initially taken because of the respective actions on cortisol and acetylcholine. I've got some fairly severe depression and related anxiety. I was treated for that (et al) when i was younger, but the drugs i was given only made the symptoms worse. The bad taste that experience left in my mouth has motivated me to try to weed out my own problems. Misguided and unwise? Probably, but its working so far.

The PS and ALCAR have worked very well thus far, well enough that i can be sure i'm not receiving a mild placebo effect. As a result, i'd like to increase the dose to see if i can reap any further benefits.

I havent read many studies on PS, but it appears that the effects of PS on cortisol are linear up to around 1000mg (at least, thats the highest dosing ive seen in any human study). Cortisol reduction was ~50% at that dose.

As for ALCAR, dosing seems to vary widely... but 2g/3xday seems to be ideal (working off the assumption that ALCAR has a metabolic half-life of 6 hours). It's something i'd like to play around with.

Choline seems to work synergistically with just about everything... with PS as PS increases the number of acetylcholine receptors, with ALCAR in increased lipolysis, with piracetam, i again havent read up much, but without choline supplementing with piracetam seems to result in mild headaches. CDP-Choline and Alpha-GPC have even been suggested to alleviate ADD-like symptoms (yet another aspect that would be right up my alley).

I'm thinking of adding the vinpocetine and piracetam only because they seem like the best suited nootropics to work with my existing PS/ALCAR/Choline supplementation. I really have no reason to add them beyond all the excellent feedback i've seen for them. I suppose this is really an effort to get some feedback from anyone who's used any of these supplements, or anyone who's knowledgable about their synergistic effects on how i could improve this stack (considering my goals).

Monolith · 03-11-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
Something to look over..........

http://www.damicon.fi/sd/
http://www.hyperreal.org/nootropics/drugs/

Those links look excellent, thanks. It'll probably be a couple days before i wade into them, though... my brain is fried from mid-terms.

03-11-2004, 01:12 AM	#1
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	Supplement guru's... your advice please! I'm currently taking 2g/ED ALCAR, 2g/ED choline, and 800mg/ED phosphatidylserine. My current source of choline is from the phosphatidylserine (NOW foods brand, stacked with choline and inositol). I was looking to just start buying the straight PS powder, however, which means i need a new source of choline. At first i figured i'd just buy some bulk choline powder, but after a bit of reading it appears that DMAE (as its a precursor to choline and acetylcholine) would fit the bill. My question is - is this correct? And if so, what would proper dosing be? I'm also looking to increase my ALCAR supplementation to 2.5g/2xday, and the PS to 1g/ED. Would also like to add in vinpocetine @ 20mg/2xD, and Piracetam @ 4g/ED. I'm basically looking for some advice on what i'm planning on supplementing with, and in what form i should be supplementing with choline. (On a seperate note... does anyone have any information on how phosphatidylserine would interact with phosphatidylcholine? If i were to supplement with both, that is... as PS metabolizes into PC). Err... I apologize if this is somewhat incoherent, its 3 am here. lol. Any suggestions are appreciated.
	http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

03-11-2004, 02:39 PM	#2
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	bump
	http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

03-11-2004, 05:01 PM	#3
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	$10 says you don't get any answers.
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

03-11-2004, 05:17 PM	#5
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,325	OK.... phosphatidylserine is used by bodybuilders UP TO 800 mg/ED with no saftey issues. I'm assuming your either taking it for its effects on cortisol, but maybe also looking towards improving your brain function. (Choline is also used for improving brain function such as mental sharpness, and memory.) I didnt find anything about combining phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine, and I dont see why the two would interact, however I did find this about interactions with phosphatidylserine: Prescription blood thinners, such as warfarin (Coumadin), heparin, aspirin, pentoxifylline (Trental), clopidogrel (Plavix), or ticlopidine (Ticlid): Do not use phosphatidylserine except on a physician's advice. Ginkgo, garlic, or vitamin E: Taking phosphatidylserine at the same time might conceivably "thin" the blood too much. vinpocetine should be limited to no more than 10mg per day accroding to most studies I have read, due to lack of long term research. I also found that the effect of piracetam can be increased if taken with DMAE, centrophenoxine, choline, or Hydergine. When choline and piracetam are taken together there is a synergistic effect that causes a greater improvement in memory than the sum of each when taken alone (Bartus, 1981). From all these supplements, I am gathering your looking to stimulate your body, sharpen your mind and have an NO2 like effect while working out?? Almost like combining a thermogenic/brain stimulant with a hemodiolater??
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

03-11-2004, 05:20 PM	#6
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,155	I'm guessing fat loss........ If this is the case, I think alcar and ala combined with choline at 900mg would be a great choice.
	www.sbmuscle.com

03-11-2004, 05:21 PM	#7
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,325	Do I get 10 bucks?
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

03-11-2004, 05:25 PM	#10
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,325	I have been reading a bit about the nootropic stack, and from what Ive read, it seems very promising!
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

03-11-2004, 05:26 PM	#11
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	Where'd ya read about that?
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

03-11-2004, 05:27 PM	#12
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	Nootropic ain't my thang, as cognitavely, I am well put together. Though I do take ALCAR on top of my LeptiGen.
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.intelligentdesignmag.com

03-11-2004, 05:31 PM	#14
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,325	Well, Im definitely no research scientist (am working on it though). I was reading about noobtropics on http://www.ceri.com/noot.htm ... pretty interesting.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

03-11-2004, 05:32 PM	#15
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,325	Oh, and the question he asked was a bit too technical for me to be able to answer without a lot more resources OR actual education.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

03-11-2004, 05:34 PM	#16
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,155	Something to look over.......... http://www.damicon.fi/sd/ http://www.hyperreal.org/nootropics/drugs/
	www.sbmuscle.com

03-11-2004, 08:11 PM	#17
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	Hey, neat. Thanks for the replys. TP is right on. The PS and ALCAR was initially taken because of the respective actions on cortisol and acetylcholine. I've got some fairly severe depression and related anxiety. I was treated for that (et al) when i was younger, but the drugs i was given only made the symptoms worse. The bad taste that experience left in my mouth has motivated me to try to weed out my own problems. Misguided and unwise? Probably, but its working so far. The PS and ALCAR have worked very well thus far, well enough that i can be sure i'm not receiving a mild placebo effect. As a result, i'd like to increase the dose to see if i can reap any further benefits. I havent read many studies on PS, but it appears that the effects of PS on cortisol are linear up to around 1000mg (at least, thats the highest dosing ive seen in any human study). Cortisol reduction was ~50% at that dose. As for ALCAR, dosing seems to vary widely... but 2g/3xday seems to be ideal (working off the assumption that ALCAR has a metabolic half-life of 6 hours). It's something i'd like to play around with. Choline seems to work synergistically with just about everything... with PS as PS increases the number of acetylcholine receptors, with ALCAR in increased lipolysis, with piracetam, i again havent read up much, but without choline supplementing with piracetam seems to result in mild headaches. CDP-Choline and Alpha-GPC have even been suggested to alleviate ADD-like symptoms (yet another aspect that would be right up my alley). I'm thinking of adding the vinpocetine and piracetam only because they seem like the best suited nootropics to work with my existing PS/ALCAR/Choline supplementation. I really have no reason to add them beyond all the excellent feedback i've seen for them. I suppose this is really an effort to get some feedback from anyone who's used any of these supplements, or anyone who's knowledgable about their synergistic effects on how i could improve this stack (considering my goals).
	http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode