Thread: Taking M1T and Usnic Acid Together?

Originally posted by MonStar
Is this an extremely bad idea?

Your liver would think so.

Indeed.

Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Indeed.

Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.

And 8-10 Tylenol.

Liver? What liver?

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Liver? What liver?

What were we talking about?

Hey Mon... maybe you should call it quits with the M1T now? I mean... there was 3 weeks of S1+ already, and youre at 2 weeks of M1T now, right? There will be plenty of time for other cycles, maybe its best not to risk doing any permanent damage. :/

I am starting to think the same thing Monolith. I am really not sure what to do at this point. I am either going to finish up this last week or M1T and then do my PCT, or have tomorrow be my last day and stop it at 5 weeks, rather than 6.

its always better to be safe then sorry.

Usnic Acid - ?

usnic acid will torch your liver if you drink, and UA itself can be just as bad. there isnt a prize that big worth taking UA for, IMO.

Well what does Usnic Acid do for you?

Usnic Acid is an "uncoupler," which effects the way your metabolism works-->it interferes with the way you produce enrgy, making your system highly inefficient-->producing heat instead of energy. So calories only have about a 60% impact-->the rest becomes heat.

Usnic Acid works very well, with weight loss of 5-8 pounds per week easily possible-->problem is, it can cause serious liver problems and possibly liver failure in some people. It's kind of like DNP-->the active and toxic doses are very similar.

Ironically, although products containing Usnic Acid have been pulled from the market, it is still availble, while Ephedra is not.

I have read way too many very scary user reports to ever try the stuff, even though I really would love to see the effects.

i agree brodus i would love to use it too but i am too scared!

Didn't do much for me, save for massive headaches.

As brodus mentioned, it is an "uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation." It makes it harder for us to resynthesize ADP into ATP, making a process that is normally about 60% efficient, no more than 40% efficient, throwing off many more calories as heat.

I have used it before with pretty good success, especially combined with E/C. I have seen it work brilliantly for some and only mildly for others. Dose also has alot to do with it. The more you take, the better results you get (up to a point), but this increases chances for both side effects and liver problems.

GP, do you know anyone who had bad side effects, i.e. the ubiquitous rash, and had to quit taking it?

Do you recommend to people?

gp can you advise on what dosage you took and for how long?

tp, can you as well please?

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Indeed.

Might as well down it with 5-6 shots of tequila while you are at it.

This is ironic.

Originally posted by PreMier
This is ironic.

Quite. Wouldnt you love to see Mon's liver results?

They would be "interesting" to say the least.

Originally posted by brodus
GP, do you know anyone who had bad side effects, i.e. the ubiquitous rash, and had to quit taking it?

Do you recommend to people?

No, never had a client get a rash. I have had people feel very lethargic, weak in the gym, headachy and/or nauseous.

I only recommend it to my clients that compete or are extremely hardcore.

Originally posted by topolo
gp can you advise on what dosage you took and for how long?

tp, can you as well please?

450-600 mg of usnic acid per day works well, divided into 3 doses. I do know people that have gone as high as 1200 mg per day, but I feel this is dangerously high and asking for trouble.

You aren't fat so I dont know why you would even consider it, but as far as safety its about "as safe" as DNP.

Originally posted by Mudge
You aren't fat so I dont know why you would even consider it, but as far as safety its about "as safe" as DNP.

Well, most people use this to get from say 6-7% bodyfat down to 3-4%, not b/c they are fat.

As far as safety goes, UA would never raise body temp as high as DNP can. UA is far "safer" than DNP for sure.

Isnt UA more toxic to the liver than DNP?

Originally posted by Monolith
Isnt UA more toxic to the liver than DNP?

Some say that...I disagree. And besides, the effective dose and deadly dose of DNP are so close that DNP is just so much more dangerous.

GP how long of a cycle.........to still be somewhat "safe"?

and is milk thistle adviseable while using it?

GoPro, UA indeed shuts down the oxidative phosphorolation process harder then DNP:

The study cited looks at the concentrations of UA or DNP at the target site (liver mitochondria) which cause complete shutdown of OP. In the study cited, UA did so at 1/50th the concentration of DNP. 1: Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102 Related Articles, Links

Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria.

Abo-Khatwa AN, al-Robai AA, al-Jawhari DA.

Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Now, that doesn't make UA more dangerous than DNP (I definitely think we all agree DNP is a much more lethal chemical) for a number of reasons, but something worth noting.

If I was going to try it, I would be extremely conservative for the first two weeks, b/c it's not something that you bump up every day until you see results. That's how most of the bad reports I read occurred. The effects may continue after stopping supplementation:

I was the person to report extremely high liver enzyme levels. I took SU for about a week. I had some reaction so I went to the er and they did blood tests. At this point the liver enzymes were slightly high. I stopped the SU. However the enzymes continued to rise for 2 more weeks. At which point it started a downward trend and finally back to normal after a few more weeks. The doctor said there problably isn't any long term damage.

Also, you may be abnormally sensitive to UA, and it's no fun to learn this in an ambulance on the way to the hospital for liver failure.

From a study on what happens if you shutdown the oxidative phosphoralation process hard :

Complete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation causes liver failure, the inhibition even seen with lower doses causes tremendous amounts of free radical damage as well as impairing liver function which in those susceptible MAY lead to early/rapid expression of liver related cancers.

From an excellent post on UA:

1. Rash ? Some users develop a rash on usnic acid and sodium usniate. This appears to an allergic reaction to some substance within usnic acid. What we have witnessed is that the rash is mostly present in higher dosages ? usually above 750mg. In addition, the rash has subsided in all people who have reported the rash. For some it took a few days, others around 2 weeks to completely subside.

2. Heat and increased sweating ? this is the most commonly reported side effect of usnic acid. The heat stops as usage stops and is simply a by-product of the way usnic acid works in your body.

3. Headaches ? some people have reported headaches. This could very well be a result of the increased heat and potentially dehydration from increased sweating.

4. Vomiting ? 2 or 3 people reported vomiting while taking usnic acid. This tends to be a rare occurrence as far as we know.

5. Elevated enzyme levels ? A couple people checked their liver enzyme levels via a blood test and found their levels to be above normal (in one situation, quite high actually). While only a few people have checked their levels, it seems that usnic acid might indeed cause some strain on the liver. Just as 17aa orals are liver toxic and other supplements can raise blood pressure, cause prostate hypertrophy, and other sides, this might be one side effect of usnic acid use. I should point out that it is recommended that usnic acid be cycled (2 weeks at time) to give your liver sufficient recuperation time if it is indeed being strained.

6. Abdominal pain ? I have only witnessed this from a few users. This tends to be rare as well.

Lastly, for an opposing viewpoint, this is the post from another forum that made me decide to stay away from UA:

1)
supplements containing usnic acid (or its sodium salt) have been implicated in fulminant hepatic failure (liver problems) in close to a dozen otherwise healthy people between the ages of 18 and 32.

2)
It is my belief that the misuse of this supplement will dramatically and irrevocably increase the risk of cancer, promote serious anomalies of the body's cellular reproductive mechanisms, and potentially lead to the death of the user (not much different from DNP)

For the record, there are currently 28 patents on file with the US Patent Office concerning usnic acid, including its use as a fungicide, antibiotic, antineoplastic, antituberculotic, and for the treatment of leishmaniasis and coccicoides (parasitic infestation of the intestines).

3)

A lot of studies that deal w/ usnic acid use mice (although we can extrapolate the data to men, as mice and men are both mammalian systems), usnic acid has been shown to increase clastogenic (chromosome or gene breaking) action in mouse femur (bone) cells, something that I know we all want to avoid unless we're looking forward to osteoporosis, bone cancers, and hip replacement surgery in the near future.

here's a ref:
6) J Ethnopharmacol 1991 Jul;33(3):217-20

Thanks to T-mag I did not have to repeat myself, after saying this a million times to people.

Conclusion, if you are willing to risk osteoporosis, bone cancers, or any other tumor possibilities then go ahead and use the product....I don't condone it, neither do I think it's a positive. I'm neutral, just read the above facts and make your own decision.